Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

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loneranger
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Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:47 pm

Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#1 Postby loneranger » Fri May 05, 2023 2:59 pm

Ok I know the subject of projectile shortages has been talked about many times before, but I think we are fast coming to a point where the state/territory associations together with the national association have to lay an egg on this issue once and for all. The situation is getting worse by the day, with world events making countries more and more nervous and a large gun owner population in the US stockpiling guns and ammo, I think it's time we have a real strategy to secure reliable supplies of our own Australian made projectiles and for that matter, primers.

Surely the NRAA and/or the equivalent state & territory associations could approach Thales here in Australia about doing something. I realise that membership of our particular sport is far too small to support local manufacturing alone, but surely an existing weapons & ammo manufacturer such as Thales would have the capacity and technical prowess to justify a strong business case to start making projectiles for their own ammo, (as well as primers) for export markets, other o/s manufacturers and of course ourselves?
I know the naysayers out there will have lots of the usual negative comments, however I'd prefer to hear from members who can positively contribute to this conversation - if not what I am suggesting, what other ideas are out there ?

Stvh
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:05 am

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#2 Postby Stvh » Fri May 05, 2023 4:23 pm

Totally agree.

Weairy
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Location: Seymour, Vic

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#3 Postby Weairy » Fri May 05, 2023 4:33 pm

Projectiles are still pretty driven by jacket supply from what I can gather. We’ve got quite a few Aussie made projectiles (Copperheads, Rexem etc) but they’re still restricted by how many J4 jackets they can buy. I have no idea what’s involved in primer manufacturing, but I imagine it’s a similar supply chain issue too…
Josh Weaire

loneranger
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#4 Postby loneranger » Fri May 05, 2023 5:00 pm

Yeah, I know that jacket supply is one of the issues, but what I am saying is we need a local manufacturer to actually make the jackets here and not be reliant on overseas suppliers. I mean, as a country we produce a huge amount of copper, lead, tin, etc...so surely we can make jackets ? I mean we used to manufacture radios, cars and other high tech gear, so with all the brainpower and natural resources, surely we can produce something as simple as a copper jackets bullet.

Weairy
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 pm
Location: Seymour, Vic

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#5 Postby Weairy » Fri May 05, 2023 7:00 pm

loneranger wrote:Yeah, I know that jacket supply is one of the issues, but what I am saying is we need a local manufacturer to actually make the jackets here and not be reliant on overseas suppliers. I mean, as a country we produce a huge amount of copper, lead, tin, etc...so surely we can make jackets ? I mean we used to manufacture radios, cars and other high tech gear, so with all the brainpower and natural resources, surely we can produce something as simple as a copper jackets bullet.


We’ll have to buy the copper and lead back off China first
Josh Weaire

Ken Melgaard
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Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:32 pm
Location: West Wodonga, Vic

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#6 Postby Ken Melgaard » Fri May 05, 2023 8:29 pm

The bottom line….
There’s more $’s in Defence & Homeland Security than “Sports Shooting”!!
Just look no further than NIOA. They could if they want too, we are very small consumers, in the big picture
Thales Benalla is paid by Defence to keep a primer manufacturing facility maintained, just in case they can’t get primers from the USA
I have looked @ jackets just not worth the investment
Ken @ Copperhead Bullets

michaeljp65
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Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:50 pm

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#7 Postby michaeljp65 » Fri May 05, 2023 11:35 pm

Does anyone remember "The bullet factory" in western sydney. The bloke used to make his own jackets . I went around to his place once and saw his set up in his garage. From making his jackets to putting in the lead core to pointing the projectile. It was a slow process but if a bloke could make all his own machines and make enough projectiles on the side to keep his customers happy surely someone with a few bucks could build a factory to keep aussies
supplied

OuttaAmmo
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:52 am
Location: Darwin

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#8 Postby OuttaAmmo » Sat May 06, 2023 2:58 pm

Weairy wrote:Projectiles are still pretty driven by jacket supply from what I can gather. We’ve got quite a few Aussie made projectiles (Copperheads, Rexem etc) but they’re still restricted by how many J4 jackets they can buy. I have no idea what’s involved in primer manufacturing, but I imagine it’s a similar supply chain issue too…



Optimus projectiles weren’t reliant on J4 jackets.
I’ve seen the machine stamp them out of a copper strip, form them into jackets, insert lead core, then form into projectile.
That was one machine.

There was a smaller simple machine that cut the cores to length too.

OuttaAmmo
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:52 am
Location: Darwin

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#9 Postby OuttaAmmo » Sat May 06, 2023 3:00 pm

michaeljp65 wrote:Does anyone remember "The bullet factory" in western sydney. The bloke used to make his own jackets . I went around to his place once and saw his set up in his garage. From making his jackets to putting in the lead core to pointing the projectile. It was a slow process but if a bloke could make all his own machines and make enough projectiles on the side to keep his customers happy surely someone with a few bucks could build a factory to keep aussies
supplied


Don’t know what you call a slow process, but from memory I think I’ve seen the bullet counter at Optimus projectiles up to around 20,000 and I think that was for one day.

Aus9914
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:37 am

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#10 Postby Aus9914 » Sat May 06, 2023 5:56 pm

Hear what you're saying but which caliber are they going to make the projectiles for?

The pole on this very site has 5 listed for F Class and there are 2 for target rifle. Then with the 200k members of the SSAA over the 6k(?) of the NRAA, which projectile are you going to make for them? in what weight?

Remembering the NRAA's transition from factory 7.62, to hand loads, to including 5.56, to then including F class, how many are going to be happy reverting back to the one caliber just so you can get a guaranteed domestic supply and be able to shoot?

The point I'm trying to make is that F class is a subset of the NRAA and that subset is broken down even further with the choice of caliber and weight of projectile. We are a very small market and as hard as it is to swallow, it may be a wise move if the choice of calibers and projectile weights were constrained and there was a moved back to being in line with what the ADF are using.

willow
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#11 Postby willow » Sat May 06, 2023 8:19 pm

I have heard rumours about NIOA building their own primer manufacturing facility. Something of this scope and nature will take several years to take place though, if it pans out.

Barossa_222
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Location: Barossa Valley

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#12 Postby Barossa_222 » Sat May 06, 2023 8:53 pm

I've never really had a problem getting supply of anything really. I work 2 years ahead, buy the stuff as it comes up and keep in front of the curve. Most of the people I know in this sport who operate at high competitive levels do the same thing and also don't seem to have a problem. The global supply issue will change and things will become more readily available. While people are willing to pay, stuff will continue to get made.
We are such a small drop in the grand scheme of things, the profitability of tooling up for the kinds of things you are suggesting just isn't feasible.

Aus9914
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:37 am

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#13 Postby Aus9914 » Sun May 07, 2023 2:01 pm

Yes to be competitive you need to. I remember a discussion at Cecil Park circa 2004 and the woman I was talking to spent 30k on smallbore ammo after sending her rifle to the factory to batch test. Not everyone can afford that level of expenditure and with the quality control issues we've seen with local manufacturers, that sort of expenditure has no guarantee your purchase will enhance your ability to be competitive.

loneranger
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#14 Postby loneranger » Sun May 07, 2023 10:19 pm

Lots of good input but I don’t buy the argument that we are too small and we should stockpile. That’s squirrel thinking. As I said, if someone took the bull by the horns here, they could make a strong business case to supply defence, police, overseas export etc and we would be a small subset of the larger market. Put it this way, we seem to be able to secure locally made powder no problem - that’s because we are small customer of a munch larger customer base of a major local manufacturer . The old “we are too small a market” doesn’t hold water if you base your feasibility on much larger markets which I said on the outset.
As for calibre, I think it would be pretty smart to start with 30 cal given the wide use of various ammo used here and all the world. Over time I sure we can all .22, 6mm and 7mm. In regards to stockpiling, this is nothing new but that’s not the answer. How do you grow the sport when you are hampered by component shortages all the time - as someone said, not everyone has the capacity to buy bulk all the time.
I think this issue needs imagination, structure and vision. The likes of Optimus nearly got there but their product went off and they failed to recover if I recall.
Ken, you make a great product, have you ever thought of a JV with the likes of Noia or maybe even Thales ??

Aus9914
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:37 am

Re: Projectile & Primer Supplies - We need to something...

#15 Postby Aus9914 » Mon May 08, 2023 7:13 am

loneranger wrote: As I said, if someone took the bull by the horns here, they could make a strong business case to supply defence, police, overseas export etc


How many rnds do you think they fire per year? I was talking to a sniper from 3 RAR in '92 at the Belmont range in QLD when they were still airborne and he told me they threw themselves and their rifles out of an aircraft more than they went to a range. Yes, times have changed and 3RAR is no longer airborne but they still don't go to the range anywhere near as often as you think they do. The average rifle club member who only shoots once a week expends more live ammunition in a year than the average rifleman and those that aren't infantry expend even less. As for police snipers they are even thinner on the ground. If you want to be part of a larger defence contract with Thales that means whatever projectile they are using for machine guns with its specified grouping ability to suit the desired "cone of fire" their machine gun theory specifies. So it's back to 144 grn 30 cal fmj, How many are going to be happy with that?


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