Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

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Steve N
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 8:16 pm
Location: Gippsland Victoria.

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#91 Postby Steve N » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:36 pm

I'm not anti muzzle brake at all and have rifles fitted with them but I reckon if they are used in any type of f class shoot they should be squadded seperated from other shooters or put at the end of the mound.

Temporary sound barriers could be an absolute hazard on a windy day and could block the ROs view of the shooter. Dust and debris blown around from the muzzle blast would be pain. (A lot of shooters get cranky if you cast a shadow over them) Alan's idea may help but for the time added to setup and I'm not sure it's ideal for anything to be in front of the muzzle except the target.

Another issue with brakes could be the extra hearing protection might make it hard to hear the scorer and range commands. I have enough trouble hearing them with normal hearing protection..

pjifl
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#92 Postby pjifl » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:00 pm

Interesting Demo. As expected, one can predict quite a lot by looking at their geometry.

It would be nice to have some universally accepted measuring system so advertising was more meaningful. Of course that would require selecting a 'standard' cartridge. I think the area where advertising becomes most suspect is when people want to sell a combined Perfect Suppressor and Perfect Brake.

Peter Smith.

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#93 Postby Gyro » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:22 am

Steve N wrote:I'm not anti muzzle brake at all and have rifles fitted with them but I reckon if they are used in any type of f class shoot they should be squadded seperated from other shooters or put at the end of the mound.

Temporary sound barriers could be an absolute hazard on a windy day and could block the ROs view of the shooter. Dust and debris blown around from the muzzle blast would be pain. (A lot of shooters get cranky if you cast a shadow over them) Alan's idea may help but for the time added to setup and I'm not sure it's ideal for anything to be in front of the muzzle except the target.

Another issue with brakes could be the extra hearing protection might make it hard to hear the scorer and range commands. I have enough trouble hearing them with normal hearing protection..


I agree pretty much. While shooting yesterday I tried to visualise having a "sound barrier" set up and used alongside others and I think there would be many problems. Probably not practical I suspect.

Interesting talking to a PRS shooter who just recently went to register for a PRS shoot on Facebook and 8 minutes after it was posted there were 50 shooters registered and he missed out. Maybe the same could happen soon for a Rimfire BR shoot ?

On the plus side the guy who won yesterdays F Open is only in his 2nd season. We shot all Longs in normal Trentham winds. I have enjoyed giving this shooter a LOT of help and ongoing feedback and advice. This example shows what can be achieved when ready help is freely given to a new shooter..

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#94 Postby AlanF » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:44 am

Gyro,

I believe that suppressors are legal in NZ. Do you read about criminals using them to their advantage? Are you aware of any pressure from police there to have them banned?

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#95 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:11 am

is prs etc the thing of the future, or a passing fad.
i can remember when rifle silhouette was the in thing, then ipsc handgun, then handgun silhouette.
all these things still go on, but not in the frenzy of when they first started.
the prs thing has been good for marketing because a whole lot of new stuff has been available to sellers of products, opening up new markets.
hence advertising has been heavily deployed in that area, even to the extent that target rifles have been promoted falsely as better hunting rifles.
fclass and tr require equipment not available from big makers, so big makers are less interested in it.
this is a cross we have to bear.
while we run around like chooks with their heads cut off worrying about prs, and looking for ways to emulate it, we are getting our eye off the ball.
how can we promote what we have.it has merit in its own right.
how can we make money from our assets, including ranges.
and where will we go when the public starts to perceive prs type rifles as a threat to safety.
we have avenues to promote what we have now, and to position ourselves for greater longevity in a firearms challenged world at the same time.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

PeteFox
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: 7321 Tas.

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#96 Postby PeteFox » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:13 am

bruce moulds wrote:is prs etc the thing of the future, or a passing fad.
i can remember when rifle silhouette was the in thing, then ipsc handgun, then handgun silhouette.
all these things still go on, but not in the frenzy of when they first started.
the prs thing has been good for marketing because a whole lot of new stuff has been available to sellers of products, opening up new markets.
hence advertising has been heavily deployed in that area, even to the extent that target rifles have been promoted falsely as better hunting rifles.
fclass and tr require equipment not available from big makers, so big makers are less interested in it.
this is a cross we have to bear.
while we run around like chooks with their heads cut off worrying about prs, and looking for ways to emulate it, we are getting our eye off the ball.
how can we promote what we have.it has merit in its own right.
how can we make money from our assets, including ranges.
and where will we go when the public starts to perceive prs type rifles as a threat to safety.
we have avenues to promote what we have now, and to position ourselves for greater longevity in a firearms challenged world at the same time.
bruce.


EXACTLY

Rich4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Location: Chinchilla

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#97 Postby Rich4 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:28 am

Really well articulated Bruce, western action was the rising star when I had time between school and work, the fads come and go it’s a matter of retaining the core and hopefully exploiting the fact that TR excels at teaching the discipline and coordination required to be a good positional shooter, silhouette, prs western action ipsc etc are FUN which is saleable

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#98 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:57 am

rich,
you use the word discipline.
this is sometimes thought of as a demerit for us compared to some other forms of shooting.
however that in itself handled correctly is potentially a fantastic marketing point.
i like to think of fclass as the thinking person's form of shooting, anf tr is coming more into this category.
we work well together.
any new things to come along would be more suited to us should they come into our template.
when we "deploy" we "deploy" together for mutual benefit.
in fact why should we change to suit others if we can convince some of them to change to suit us.
they and new shooters just need to understand that we have more to offer, and if we don't tell them, who will.
it is just a matter of being effective in doing this - an area we have failed in up to now.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

PeteFox
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: 7321 Tas.

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#99 Postby PeteFox » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:07 am

bruce moulds wrote:is prs etc the thing of the future, or a passing fad.


If the police have their way in Tas, then the predominant style of rifle in PSR shooting will soon be banned. The "look alike" laws have made gel blasters illegal in Tas, so I think that e.g. the "Ruger Precision Rifle" and their contemporaries will soon be a thing of the past. https://ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/models.html
I think that the promotion of these firearms is an attempt at the Americanisation of our sport.
The general public can't tell the difference between one of these and an SKS or Kalashnikov. Nor can they tell the difference between the NRA and the NRAA.
One complaint, and your local range will be tagged forever.

Pete

bruce moulds
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Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#100 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:21 am

nra and nraa is a good point.
i have found this to be a good selling point when explaining the difference to people.
BECAUSE we are different, people feel safer with us.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#101 Postby Gyro » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:23 am

AlanF wrote:Gyro,

I believe that suppressors are legal in NZ. Do you read about criminals using them to their advantage? Are you aware of any pressure from police there to have them banned?


No Alan I cant imagine the police having a problem here with crims using suppressors. If ya watch movies theres the classic crime scene scenario where a suppressed/silenced pistol is used to take someone out. Only In the movies I suspect.

The real threat to public safety IMO is the "lone nutter". But when the law change came in to ban that cetain class of semi-auto guns there was/is a huge backlash from many quarters here. NOT helpful for all of us for the future I reckon !!!

Wal86
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#102 Postby Wal86 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:29 am

This topic wouldn't be a talking point if the introduction of sporter/hunter class was successful.. Fact is sporter/hunter class was introduced 18months ago, and it's fair to say in Victoria just about non existent. With the push for more longer ranges and use of electronic targets, their equipment isnt practical.

For some unknown reason there is an argument against a class of younger shooters who are invested in long range target shooting, understand that accuracy has a cost and driven by marketing machines around the world.. Ridiculous if you ask me!!!!

Cheers
Alan

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#103 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:26 pm

wal,
anyone that knew what hunting rifles and ammunition are knew that hunter class could never be a major thing.
here is a case of insufficient homework.
it could work with a different format however, and be quite successful if done right.
your last sentence suggests a similar lack of thought.
this thread has shown a real attempt to discuss issues regarding inclusion of braked rifles, and raised some interesting points, pro and con, of how to go about it in a genuine way.
standing back and saying "rediculous if you ask me" is not the way to get what you want.
accusing fclass guys of being against what you want is also a failure to make a sensible point.
firstly you need to work out what you do want, and then define it thoroughly.
guys here have attempted to work out ways to include brakes on the line, as well as problems logistically and otherwise in an open way.
these thing all need to be addressed in balance, and compromises made.
perhaps the simples compromise is for the brake guys to jettison them and shoot paper rather than steel.
then they can shoot along with us and everyone will be happy.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#104 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:01 pm

further to the above,
what are you actually bringing to the table ?
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Wal86
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

#105 Postby Wal86 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:23 pm

Wal86 wrote:This topic wouldn't be a talking point if the introduction of sporter/hunter class was successful.. Fact is sporter/hunter class was introduced 18months ago, and it's fair to say in Victoria just about non existent. With the push for more longer ranges and use of electronic targets, their equipment isnt practical.

For some unknown reason there is an argument against a class of younger shooters who are invested in long range target shooting, understand that accuracy has a cost and driven by marketing machines around the world.. Ridiculous if you ask me!!!!

Cheers
Alan


Bruce,

The class should have been tactical class, zero restrictions or compromise of their gear.. We wouldn't be having this discussion again and again about growth. 18months is sufficient time to see growth, and Victoria has seen next to none..

All classes are subject to the times, TR is a perfect example.. The current trend is Tactical our sport should embrace this class/sponsors/movement..

The discussion about brakes is laughable, squadding solves any issues related to brakes, hearing protection should always be worn on a range period..

Our decision making of late and what's priority is tragic, heck the time/resources and money spent on a recent safety issue (Empty Chamber Indicator), we didn't have a safety issue to solve, we have an impeccable safety record... But we solved that issue good job..

Cheers
Alan


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