Lifting Restrictions on Brakes in F-Class

[argh]

Lee, with all due respect, it appears you have more issues than muzzle breaks, and i dont think lifting that restriction for the main F Class disciplines is going to change your issues.

F class hunter sporter allows for muzzle breaks. No need for a change. If you want to bring your PRS or tactical rifle, thats where you sit, and compete. Plenty of clubs ARE allowing this on their range, plenty are not. Up to the club. At a range near me, out of 4 clubs, one has taken it on with passion, the other three have not.
Its time for you to lobby YOUR club, not the national body. The national body has already changed in an effort to attract those new members you are referring to. You need to get your local club to pick up the FSH discipline.

Thanks
Adrian

[Lee]

LOL I vaguely remember having a similar experience getting up off a mound and wanting to firmly ram a rifle brake fair up someones personal gas port during one of these inter association days. I realize they haven't changed that much. I guess I was just asking if it could be worth visiting and looking at ways to work around things to make them less of a problem. Maybe the spacing between shooters on the mound with reduced numbers per detail etc or blast mitigation mats. Dunno, but I do know some of the more recent brakes put the blast further forwards and more out the top to reduce the effects on others close by. With a few extra conditions and adjustments they may be ok. Or maybe running a detail specifically for rifles with brakes where spacing can be adjusted. Lots of maybe scenarios. But if it gets one or two extras into a local club it may provide a base to work from in order to further sort through the problem Rather than having it end up in the too hard basket. As long as everyone is able to use them there would be no advantage or disadvantage as every shooter can have the same as the next if they so wish.

I agree with the Tech side too. Yes as a new shooter you/they need to hit the ground running to get a chance at a podium finish. Is it the immediate recognition for effort and skill that we want. Or is it a chance to to perhaps go on a funded trip to where ever for an interstate and eventually an international shooting match as many cant afford these types of shoots if funded from their own pocket.
As wingnut pointed out do we as a sport need the small prizes or can they be reduced to allow for bigger rewards for effort and better facilities.
I know in myself when getting up and running there were lots of shoots where I came home and although not winning or even placing close to the top I had a good day as i had gotten further up the ladder than i had previously. Recognition for that might be the go by way of having smaller brackets for classes and more classes. So that as a shooter you and others can see your personal achievement by advancing through classes moving towards the top and a chance at a grand prize rather than winning or not at a local level. Incorporate a badge system where you get a cloth badge to sew onto your shooting clobber when you get to a level of achievement. That way others can see where your at as a shooter both at a state level and a national level. This may induce the more experienced shooters to help the lesser experienced rather than look down on them so to speak. I see it as shooters need recognition for effort more so than a shiny dust collector every time they go to an OPM. Smaller prizes at small shoots saving the cash input for a large prize at the end type thing. Recognition for progression would go a long way I think.

As John said, reduce the long range to get more short range type shoots in where people learn more in a shorter period as the tech side doesn't have so much of an impact on the end result. They can use the equipment they have against the 5000 dollar rifles and be competitive. At 500 a 223 in its raw form is just as competitive as a 7 SAUM if handled right and the flags still matter but mistakes are a little less problematic and generally not match defining. Make it easier to get the experience to get competitive at the longer stuff and make shooters want to progress into the better rifles, with time to learn how to use them rather than needing them from the get go, to be able to get anywhere within the sport.

Its all possible it just needs some effort and to have some allowances made to advance as a shooting class and sport within the greater shooting community. If that change needs to be done by the NRAA then so be it make it a requirement of clubs and state associations to do this kind of thing so state organizations don't get lazy or complacent and pour money into one or two clubs rather than the state as a whole while smaller clubs suffer and go by the way side as thats where the overall numbers come from as we all know. Look after grass roots for greener grass.

When Sandford range was in existence we shot to 700 as thats as far as we could shoot and the only time we could go further was when we went to Campbelltown to shoot where we got hit with ranges out to 1200. Big learning curve when you were used to shooting in somewhat protected area at relatively short ranges to an open area where the wind would come blasting through from the west around hills or from the north across a plain. Another thing I have noticed is the amount of shoots cancelled due to bad weather, ok days like that are not much fun but its a learning thing. 100 yard .22lr matches for teaching wind skills at low cost? why not? make it a thing where clubs must have one day a month for that to address an obligation towards the ongoing improvement of shooting skills. It will bring some back to a level where they can test skill rather than equipment and help the younger shooters. Perhaps its something that the NRAA needs to address with State Committees to incorporate into the rosters. Have a short range OPM with a part of the day dedicated to a 22LR long range championship where shooters need to shoot a number of matches over the year at club level to enable them to enter a shoot off to determine the championship.

[Quick]

Lee,

Im having a bit of trouble follwowing exactly what your after. Can you break it down for us?

It seems like what your asking has mainly been catered for with Sporter Hunter Class.

With regards to rules and classes for F-Class. As we are goverened by ICFRA for F-Open and F/TR, new subclasses inside those classes probably wont happen.

[Lee]

Yep I do have bigger issues than just brakes. and I would rather take my F-Class rifle to an F-Class match than change it to a PRS style rifle.
To watch the sport become more disjointed than it has become is a worrying thing hence lobbying the national body on an open forum to try and get some consistency back into the discipline as a whole. Rather than 1 from 4 clubs taking on a new style while others dig their heels in and refuse to entertain the thought because of a few stalwarts wanting tradition. Open the sport up to allow growth and incorporate the new with the old rather than shutting the new out and becoming stale in a traditional form. The national governing body is by definition responsible for the sport so why not lobby them. Perhaps if things were taken out of the clubs hands and delivered by the national body as a whole then we wouldn't be in the predicament the we find ourselves in as a shooting sport. Working together as one will ultimately bring the sport back. Whats bigger? The sport or the want of a few to keep things how they are and disregard the need for change and growth. Yes the clubs need to get on board but so does the state and national bodies. Fortunately my club would like to move in this direction but disappointingly are restricted but the powers above.

[Gyro]

Our NRA in their ‘wisdom’ have just done the Class within a Class experiment. They have allowed the wishes of some to be met and set up a class for FTR and 155 grain bullets and called it “FTR Classic”. Bloody fantastic idea that will just divide and destroy an already very weakened class !

Seems many think just creating something ‘new’ will solve the attendance problems. I suspect a big problem in todays world is there’s a real lack of people coming along that want to be serious and put in the hard yards to master whatever shooting discipline they take part in. Many are happy to kid themselves how great they are by posting on Facebook what they did …. but where’s all the serious minded individuals that really want to take up a good challenge ? Learning to Shoot FO or FTR well is a really good challenge !

[Lee]

Hi Quick sorry All i want is for things to change for the better if that means lifting restrictions for brakes then so be it if that means changing a few more things then so be it, what I don't want is to continue down the path we are currently heading. F-Class as a F-STD shooter along with F-Open is great and I do enjoy it it its current form but its not sustainable. If we need to get changes from ICFRA then thats what needs to happen lets start with them and see what can be made possible. The initial post was a door opener for what has become a larger than I would ever have thought conversation ... Though it has outlined the different points of view among us to say the least. Some for some against but at least it started a conversation to some how move forwards for the good of the sport.
Cheers

[Matt P]

Lee
You're in Tassie I assume reading between the lines ??
I feel for you as your State Ass seems to be in race to see who gets to turn the lights off and close the door.
Although the NRAA is the National Body it has no power over the States and in some some (most) cases the STA's have no power over the ranges, so the "flat earth society" do what ever they want.
If you really want to make change people have to get on DRA, State and National commitees and push common sense, fact driven arguments on why change is required.
Regards
Matt Paroz

[Lee]

Bang on Gyro it is a great challenge but we also need newbies to enter and see the greater challenges that can be sort after. And making it easier to get into and enable them to gain the skill set to take on the challenge seems to be an issue for some. Not many want to come in spend the big dollars and spend years learning, they want success and if it means making the sport easier to get into, then all for it. If it means they will progress and stay with the sport for longer and build on their equipment and knowledge base then yep again for me. Ppl need to crawl before they can walk and eventually run is where I'm heading I guess. So make it easy to crawl. Then the walking bit becomes easier as does the running keeping people from getting discouraged and moving elsewhere or not starting to begin with because of the challenges. if it makes a difference have an F-Elite class where thing are the traditional class to increase the challenge for those moving up the skill ladder but we need to first engage people and make the sport attractive to more than just the ones who want to push themselves hard from the get go.

[Lee]

Hi Matt and thanks for recognizing the state of affairs down here hopefully it wont spread further than here. I guess thats why I am the way I am with all this as I know first hand what happens when we dont work through a situation.
If thats who I need to speak to then thats where I will go hopefully they will see sense.

[Quick]

I understand what your saying. Myself im 30yrs old. Been involoved for around 12years now and been trying my best to bring change around. Unfortunatly until the old guard changes, all we can do is keep trying our best and doing what we can without everyone hating us.

As Matt has pointed out, the way the association is setup, you need to start with your club and DRA and get them on board. Then they take it up the chain. Trying to bypass doesnt really work as the old guard just say that it hasnt been done via proper channels it gets mothballed. Ask me how I know this. Its fustrating.

The other issue that we have today is that the majority of new people these days want instant gratification. They dont want to put in the work to get better. And they want everything for nothing. And the shooting sports that we do dont offer that really as yes, it does cost some money to do and you need to work at it. But once they are hooked, they are on their way.

Trust me mate. I know its fustrating and that it sucks. But we have to keep trying and we need to pick our battle and be smarter then the old guard.

[Lee]

Frustrating yes but also bloody infuriating that the ones who have helped build the sport over the years past wont open theirs eyes and see the forest from the trees and take action to help get it back on track.
I have a pretty good understanding of how you know this its been the same since F-Class started. A lot of the same arguments were put forward by the original target rifle shooters way back when, and again when FTR first kicked off though probably not to the same extent as FTR was already similar bar the use of the rest against the bi-pods, along with a few other small changes. I just purchased a 6.5 to shoot F Open matches and it quite easily could of been PRS except for my pigheadedness and determination to stay and watch grow a sport I have been at for years and want to continue with. And yes it came with a brake but I have removed it for the sake of staying here with in he discipline. with or with out is one is not an issue for me. but for others it can be and is when determining which shooting sport they want to adopt and grow with as shooters. I guess its time to bunker down and be as determined to change things up as they are not to.

[Quick]

Alot of people dont like change. And the world has changed at such an alarming rate in the last 20years that alot of people (not just shooters) are still trying to catch up. Just keep plodding along and do the best we can.

We are making some inroads here in WA. But it takes time. Longer then I would like however.

[Mozzie]

No brakes please.
I'm not an old time shooter, about 2.5 years so only new. But I knew the rules before starting and tried before I brought into the sport. As previously stated brakes have been catered for in different disaplines.
I have 2 questions.
Why not utilise the ranges on other days for this group ?
Have you ever considered how many shooters you might loose if being told to shoot next to a braked rifle ?
If doing the same thing doesn't work after trying 50 times. Look at it a different way and try something new to get the result you want.
Just my ideas.
Mozzie

[Lee]

Hiya Mozzie, Not saying anyone should be made to shoot next to a braked rifle. just simply allow people to use brakes. If it means running a separate detail for the shooters with brakes then why not smaller numbers of people on the mound by maybe three would give extra spacing to move further apart thus mitigating any blast from the people using brakes. I'm simply saying lets look at ways to fix the problems involved with shooting whilst using them. lots of ranges have mounds that cater for a lot more people than turn up on a regular basis so spread out a bit. Like any problem there are ways to fix the issues. So lets work through them and it might mean that a few extra people will start showing up and at 160 dollars a year x by four shooters take out the bit for the NRAA and the rest goes back to the clubs and state associations. And thats 4 shooters for one club if that happens in three clubs across the state then there is some money for facilities at one of the state ranges. If more show even better if none show what has the club and the state association lost. But no one is suggesting a shooter with a non braked rifle should be made to be on the mound next to the braked rifle. Its about making small changes to suit more people rather than keep things the same as that is clearly not working and the numbers are showing it. It may not even happen if too many object. That's when we say good bye to the people wanting to use a brake or wish to shoot in a way that's not F-Class as we know it. But then we need to work out a way to replace them or pay a bit extra in fees to cover the money lost with the shooters that was helping to prop up the smaller clubs or they close and the shooters need to travel further. Which means more traveling costs either way its gonna get expensive in the future if we don't stop the numbers from dropping. As Quick has pointed out we as people dont like change and I would love to continue the same road if it were viable. but unless we do change and change on our own terms now come a few years time change will be forced on us as shooters and people dislike that more as now they don't have the choice.
Thank you for your ideas and thats what we need, lots of ideas some will work some wont but if everyone comes up with nothing then thats what we will end up with sad to say. Some might say alarmist but me, I see it as being a realist and there are lots of people in F-Class that want to grow but cant because of a few that refuse to see the issues and work to fix them and its been said in earlier posts from this thread."F-Class is fine how it is" Time to wake up and smell the roses before they die I'm afraid because its far from fine how it is.
Cheers

[GSells]

Clubs need to get behind sporter / hunter class at club level and even at local Opms . In f class with harmonics playing a big part in accuracy , not many would take up brakes and at Queens level it would be murder for all concerned.
But Lee yes I fee l your frustration. I was one of the people publicly pushing for change in a class for a feeder group at club level that allowed for prs style rifles to attract that market . So the leg work has already been done and ssr’s written . Clubs just have to take it up ! Fact , people do not like change .
I don’t know much about TRA , but it doesn’t sound good .
Up here in Qld at a local country meet Opm , we had nearly 100 shooters ; from Target rifle , fsb ( 30 about ) fsa , f open was about another 30 , then ftr etc was about 20 odd . This is how it is at most country opm’s we don’t have enough tgts at times !! What we do have is an Awesome Qra President and Board ! That seems to be the difference! The president being a Queens winner himself in fsa . So has an understanding of the dark side ! But not forgetting the traditional either !
It’s very hard to turn the ship around though ! Good luck mate !
Graham .