QRA Queen’s

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pjifl
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#76 Postby pjifl » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:54 am

OK. Here is a composite screen grab showing SDs of X and Y positions for 'all' (most) scoped shooters in the Top50.
Sorry about the names partly cut out but I am sure you can fill in mentally. Target positions are as from Hexta site.
They are in order across the range from left to right - the actual target no can be gleaned from the name list at the beginning of every file name.

Grab my download and use the program - you can then compare shot positions very quickly. See previous post.

Because of the different projectiles and supports, I don't think one can conclude much about the range position turbulence.
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Tim L
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#77 Postby Tim L » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:01 pm

This should be correct for the RH half of the range then.
Just targets 11-21 to confirm
20200820_115942.jpg
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AlanF
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#78 Postby AlanF » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:14 pm

Tim L wrote:...It suports Greg Warrians theory. You get cut up on the right because of turbulence from the trees, and on the left because the air is shot full of holes :lol:

I seem to remember the locals saying that the LHS end of the mound caused problems with vertical (because of the height of the face in front of it)? I notice that mound positions 1 to 9 weren't used for the "Top 50". Maybe that's why?

GSells
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#79 Postby GSells » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:27 pm

Ok , what is the conclusion on such limited data ?

AlanF
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#80 Postby AlanF » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:31 pm

For this particular analysis, useful Hexta data is not limited to this event. Any shooting from Belmont 1000yd which uses most (preferably all) of the targets is worth looking at. This probably includes all QRA and NRAA Queens Hex Systems data going back to 2017. Its a matter of finding someone with a HUGE amount of time on their hands. But what would really speed the process up is if a database guru (which I am not) could get hold of the data tables from the Hex Systems database. Maybe someone with the requisite skills from the QRA could approach Dmitri on the subject.

DenisA
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#81 Postby DenisA » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:52 pm

The Hexta information isn't useful unless its coupled with wind direction, strength, gusts, etc. Just like water being pushed through undulating terrain from different angles. I know everyone knows that. Its something that would really need to be discussed soon after each event with vividly clear recollection of conditions.
Therefore I think its fair to say that the middle of the range just makes sense in situations where its possible.

GSells
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#82 Postby GSells » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:02 pm

DenisA wrote:The Hexta information isn't useful unless its coupled with wind direction, strength, gusts, etc. Just like water being pushed through undulating terrain from different angles. I know everyone knows that. Its something that would really need to be discussed soon after each event with vividly clear recollection of conditions.
Therefore I think its fair to say that the middle of the range just makes sense in situations where its possible.

Or downwind targets to the middle as well .

DenisA
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#83 Postby DenisA » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:09 pm

There's an unmeasurable / readable amount of turbulence at both tree lines in both directions of heavy wind. As the wind rolls off the trees and then as it piles into the corner and ramps up and over again.
There's no questions about fair play if its just the middle and there's enough targets to do it with a top % shoot out.

AlanF
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#84 Postby AlanF » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:30 pm

DenisA wrote:The Hexta information isn't useful unless its coupled with wind direction, strength, gusts, etc...

Agreed it would be more useful with wind details, but the main information the QRA/NRAA needs to know is how much of a problem it is and how often it happens. For example let's say there was evidence of a similar problem at 2 of the last 6 Belmont Queens events, then the responsible committees could use that information to decide whether it was worthwhile having a general policy of not using some parts of the 1000yd mound. BTW there are other ranges around Australia with similar problems e.g. Canberra can hand out noticeably different fortunes depending on which end of the mound you are, even at the middle distances. Bendigo is not immune either. So I'd expect varying amounts of sympathy on this issue - some will just say get over it :D .

DenisA
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#85 Postby DenisA » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:36 pm

The beauty about this concept is that if it was implemented then EVERYBODY involved will appreciate it before and after the final shoot. Especially the bloke that's been working all week to maintain something amazing such as a less than 2 point lead or similar situation that often happens. There's no negatives and it doesn't give any advantage to anyone.

We need to remember that these events aren't weekend shoots or local prize meets. There's a lot of effort that goes into preparing for them. They're expensive by the time you pay for the event, accommodation, food and take time of work and away from family. Queens meets are supposed to be the PRESTIGE of events. Grass mounds should be maintained to the level of any professional sports pitch, sprayed for green ants and NOTHING should be left to chance that can be controlled by the organizing committee when they have intimate knowledge of their own range.

I'm not saying there wasn't a huge amount of effort at this one and I certainly do appreciate it from all involved. But we're certainly building up a bank of knowledge now of what could be done to make these events PROFESSIONAL.

I thought it was AWESOME that the R.O's had ant spray on the mound and were there to soak them if anyone had any issues.

Tim L
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#86 Postby Tim L » Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:08 pm

I'm not sure what it tells us but I graphed the x,y group dimensions against lanes.
There is more correlation between lost points and wind than to elevation
20200820_152331.jpg
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Gyro
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#87 Postby Gyro » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:01 pm

If even one "train wreck" can ruin your podium aspirations then ya can come undone at any time you end up shooting out on those fringes in feral conditions ?

DenisA
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Re: QRA Queen’s

#88 Postby DenisA » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:12 pm

Gyro wrote:If even one "train wreck" can ruin your podium aspirations then ya can come undone at any time you end up shooting out on those fringes in feral conditions ?


Yep true and its impossible not to run the whole line of targets at 1000y under "normal" shooting conditions where everybody is shooting.

But a top % shoot off is a completely different story. Why stick people in the crap if you don't have to?

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: QRA Queen’s

#89 Postby pjifl » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:20 pm

Tim's graphics of the X and Y group widths have a few equivalents in the output from my program. Not quite the same but the same info. presented a little differently. The reason I mention this is because I have also included data for all TR (A + B) shoots in the 'Top 50' presented in target order. You can look at these yourself.

It becomes just too HUGE a job to keep presenting more and more possible combinations of shooter/ranges cases. A large Database could do it.

BUT I am going to throw the cat among the pigeons. IF there is a bias favoring the centre of the range, the worst thing you can do is to have a single 'Top 50' range at the end of the shoot.

A major Queens tries to smooth out discrepancies by averaging many different ranges and shoots where people are placed randomly across the range. Of course, shooting different distances partly destroys this randomness.

The best format would be 10 x 1000y shoots with randomly picked targets each time. Introducing a 'Top 50' at the very end is a step backwards if you want the most even playing field as possible. Then squad disciplines as much as possible at the same time - but the targets should be random each time.

There has to be some element of externally influenced luck in long range shooting not under cover. It is just part of the sport.

Peter Smith.

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: QRA Queen’s

#90 Postby Gyro » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:31 pm

I'm not sure exactly how this "final" works in Oz but it has been suggested by some here to have the final as the decider. Fuck that.


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