F-Class Team Belmont 2015

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RAVEN
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F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#1 Postby RAVEN » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:09 pm

The SA team was well managed by our Captain Stew and did a great job of getting us all there unfortunately the rifles were not performing to expectations but that’s how it rolls sometimes
After the first 1000 15 shot match I felt we were on pace only 1 X off of the Mexicans (VIC) that took out the 15 shot match.

After some changes that did have a positive result as far as the SA team it wasn’t enough to take it out again the individual result probably reflect that very clearly :cry:
Big congratulations to NSW VIC and Rod Davies (TOR)
Great Comp well run

See you all next time coz we will be back.

RB :)

MROFD
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#2 Postby MROFD » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:41 am

RAVEN wrote:The SA OPEN team was well managed by our Captain Stew and did a great job of getting us all there unfortunately the rifles were not performing to expectations but that’s how it rolls sometimes
After the first 1000 15 shot match I felt we were on pace only 1 X off of the Mexicans (VIC) that took out the 15 shot match.

After some changes that did have a positive result as far as the SA OPEN team it wasn’t enough to take it out again the individual result probably reflect that very clearly :cry:
Big congratulations to NSW VIC and Rod Davies (TOR)
Great Comp well run

See you all next time coz we will be back.

RB :)


:-s

RAVEN
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#3 Postby RAVEN » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:18 pm

:-" :-"

BATattack
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#4 Postby BATattack » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:58 pm

yep hats off to Stuart! He organized flights and accommodation and dragged 3 SA teams kicking and screaming across the finish line. A massive effort when you see the level of detail he went into!

we did what we could but it came down to just not having guns good enough to get the job done when push come to shove. I'll put my hand up and say both of my rifles were in that group and I'll have to wait till I get them home to figure out what the cause is. I've never had pair of rifles that would regularly throw odd fliers like these over the last week. large groups because of lack of tuning yes but not regular odd fliers.

The wheels are tuning and plans are being made for the next battle :mrgreen:

Norm
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#5 Postby Norm » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:17 pm

Do you think that the cold conditions in the Southern States during the load development period played a part?
It was something that we were concerned about prior to leaving home.

BATattack
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#6 Postby BATattack » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:04 pm

Norm wrote:Do you think that the cold conditions in the Southern States during the load development period played a part?
It was something that we were concerned about prior to leaving home.


I don't think that was my issue but may have been for others. I put a fair bit of work finding a large node and loading into that. I also took 2 guns one with a warm load and one loaded .6gr lower. using the lower charged ammo in the gun tuned for the warmer charge didn't seem to improve my issues so I don't think it was a temp thing.

before I left I had 1 hang fire and 1 missfire (that wouldn't go off even with repeated re cocking) I thought it was a bolt / firing pin issue so had some work done on that before I left. The hang fire I had was very minute but just slow enough that I hear the firing pin break before the recoil and the shot came up way low in the 5 ring. At Belmont virtually all my fliers were low and I had another noticeable hang fire at 1000 and surprise surprise it came up a very low 5. I could get the odd range in without issues which made it even more frustrating when I went to the next range using the same seating depth and cleaning regime etc etc and loose 2 to vert and then go back to the drawing board.

my barrels now have about 900ish rounds of 7saum through them and maybe they are on the downward slope but when I get them home I'm going to try a different batch of primers as the more I think about it the more I think it's some sort of ignition issue.

bartman007
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#7 Postby bartman007 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:50 pm

Adam,

One thing to consider is the vibrations in the trailer travelling from SA to QLD. This could well have altered your trigger settings.

Also depending on your neck tension, your projectiles may have dropped further into the cases.

We considered dropping our loads 0.3gns to account for the increase in ambient temperature, which you too have addressed.

We didn't do enough to address the spongy mounds though, and i think that was the cause of most of our elevation both up and down. When comparing our shots to other targets at the same time, showed it was our gear that was suffering from elevation and not the wind conditions! This was evident at 1000 yards on the right hand side of the range. I worked out how to deal with the mounds during the Queens but of course that was too late. And did not lose shots to elevation.
###

BATattack
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#8 Postby BATattack » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:11 pm

nope I had a hang fire issue before I left so don't think it was just caused by transport. I replaced one firing pin spring and flushed out and polished bolts and didn't have a chance test before leaving. I also seated my bullets well out and only re seated them after arriving in QLD.

plus I had this issue in both of my guns with 2 different bolts.

I did my load development mostly with one batch of primers and then didn't have enough of that batch to load all the ammo needed so I used a new batch for all the ammo I took away. i did check to see if the fps matched but didn't do a large sample to test for consistency.

bartman007
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#9 Postby bartman007 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:15 pm

You have dotted all i's and crossed all t's then! Very thorough!

Hopefully others will see the level of preparation that we go through to compete at state level. Well done.
###

RAVEN
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#10 Postby RAVEN » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:48 pm

Adam don't tellem all our secrets :P :P :wink:

williada
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#11 Postby williada » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:19 am

Adam, did someone oil your primers? If its not a crook batch, pin protrusion check time. Max .006”. Then check spring pressure for minimum of 24 lb max 28 lb.

From what I am hearing, there is a change in the laminar flow of air densities induced by mound height at Belmont with sections of the range that funnel the laminar flows. That is, on the tops of mounds the air is compressed and meets a laminar flow of less dense air. You need gear to punch through this, not in terms of BC but in terms of velocity or a projectile of greater radius generating more torque with preference to tangent ogive or hybrid rather than a VLD that gets dizzy trying to re-orient itself with wind direction or clashing laminar flows. The crosswind condition does not upset things so much.

But elevation problems would be compounded by frontal or rear winds which always vary elevation at longer ranges as does changing cloud cover in terms of lights up sights up; and in warmer conditions creating a few thermals which die when there is cloud cover even in the absence of mirage? This is not the same as Adam’s problem. Such a combination of conditions can mean the person next to you can be in clear weather and you can be struggling with three or four factors influencing the game whether its a funnel effect or a thermal effect.

There are a few things shooters should be aware of. There may be only 30-40fps in extra velocity necessary to punch through the different laminar flow densities leaving bullet shape out of the equation. So those that tuned in colder weather could be right one range, and dead the next, depending on conditions if they are a in a cross wind or a frontal or rear wind. If its a rear wind its like surfing a wave. You have to manage a larger group and going for supercentres can strand you.

Similarly, if you used a lower node for accuracy while tuning in warmer conditions, it might not be enough either. The 7mm nodal ranges maybe seen as 2825-2850 fps for lower, 2925-2950 fps middle and 3025-3050 fps as some have documented. I know some run at much lower velocities. Each may be tight as hell for different shooters but ask yourself is your tune going to match range conditions. Just sometimes a weaker tune (bigger group with higher velocity) will score more highly if the conditions suit. BC won’t count as much, but re-iterating shape, mass, radial diameter does.

If you have ever done short range horizontal testing, you will also notice your zero move with velocity variables. So there can be an element of lateral and trying to read a condition becomes a little harder if you are using a lower node. So its best to shoot on the condition if you can, that is giving you a hit, that's where local knowledge comes in.

Looking at the equipment list, the SAUMS did well, but just maybe they had the slight velocity edge. It does not have to be much sometimes. Those 284 chamberings using the middle node may have been better off than those on an accurate low one. The only other conclusion I can reach, is that some were more fortunate with the draw and conditions and position on the mound. But it takes a skilled shooter to recognise and make the best of good luck.

While a less than solid base on spongy grass will effect group, I feel shooters had adequate warning of this issue at Belmont. The other problem is separating out a crook barrel. If your barrel was not fouling before you left why would you expect it to suddenly foul in a competitionon if your cleaning procedures have not changed? Its not like we use sealant, as old fullbore shooters used in the past. A fouling pattern tends to keep creeping you out the top and then back to normal. Bedding issues or loose fittings tend to chuck in real fliers, not the odd flier once at a range which may be the result of a dud round.

There are two additional points I would make. Do your load development in a cross wind, preferably from the right, not a headwind and North or South direction. This minimises lift factors and avoids perils of for or aft distortion of groups. It allows for an accurate zero. Secondly if you know that headwinds or tailwinds are going to be a factor on high mounds etc., sure run with a high BC if you can, but it is not the strength of the wind that will tip you out in these conditions, it is the responsiveness of the bullet to changing laminar flows. Select the right bullet. It may pay you to use a lighter bullet to punch through the turbulence with a higher velocity as another alternative if your high BC bullet cannot find a suitable higher node for group size. Its horses for courses.

David.

williada
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#12 Postby williada » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:19 pm

Laminar flow is pretty relevant. Some may know about the Australian submarine AE2, which penetrated Turkey’s naval defences during WW1 creating a few problems for the Turks. However, it was brought unstuck by laminar flow. It was being hunted by the Turks in an area where fresh water was flowing over salt water.

In trying to escape it dived down through the fresh water layer when it struck the salt water layer. It bounced off the salty layer, and pinged to the surface right in front of the Turks who took it out.

Submarine design has come a long way since, just like bullets. David.

williada
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#13 Postby williada » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:12 pm

It would be interesting to know what velocities of those that did not suffer elevation with their normal tune where using. It would also be interesting to know relatively if F/TR guys were suffering as much elevation as Fo guys and gals given their projectiles may have been a different shape and with a lower BC. Anyway much will be locked up with State secrets.

ecomeat
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#14 Postby ecomeat » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:21 pm

I am 99% sure that Lowell was shooting 180 gr Hybrids at 2870-2880 fps
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.

ecomeat
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Re: F-Class Team Belmont 2015

#15 Postby ecomeat » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:30 pm

David,
Is that laminar flow scenario going to be more of an issue with switching head winds, as opposed to fluctuating winds from one general direction ? My 900 yd shoots were all pretty good, and all had winds from a predominant direction. My bloody awful last three 1000 yard shoots were all into switching head winds. All with 180 gr VLDs at approx 2820 fps.
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.


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