Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

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GrahamW
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Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#61 Postby GrahamW » Sun May 28, 2023 11:43 pm

Jason,

I agree that if you want to be at the "top end" of any discipline it's likely going to cost more.

Yes, F/TR is more about technique and sure you can get started at a similar cost to FS but I don't see F/TR (or FO) as an entry level discipline, I see it as something to move into once you gain some experience reading wind, improving technique, learning to reload, etc. IF that's what you want to do.
You can shoot F/TR with 155gn pills & a Harris bipod if you want to keep the cost down, will you be competitive, probably not.

jasmay wrote:please don’t give pellle the illusion that FS is cheaper that FTR because it definitely isn’t, actually on average it’s probably a more expensive at least in the order of several thousand dollars, especially if you want to be competitive at the top end.


I don't know any new shooter that's likely to spend $3K on a front rest, at least not til they learn to shoot, then if they have the funds sure, go at it, if that's what you want. Same could be said for any discipline. Is it needed to be competitive at the top end? That's debatable.

All I'm saying is... dropping FS is not going to do anything to help FO or F/TR.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with Albert's topic so we probably should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Graham


jasmay wrote:Graham,

I have to disagree on FS being cheap to get into in comparison to FTR.

Look at the majority of people doing well in FS.

Weight increase to suit heavier barrels and trigger weight reduction to improve free recoil ability of a rest.

The top end all have high end front rests, expensive F-Open style stocks and highly accessorized rigs.

FS has now become F-Open restricted.

FTR is much more about technique than gear and you can get into a rig cheaper than FS these days.

I don’t have an answer as to how we grow the sport quicker, but please don’t give pellle the illusion that FS is cheaper that FTR because it definitely isn’t, actually on average it’s probably a more expensive at least in the order of several thousand dollars, especially if you want to be competitive at the top end.

Weairy
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:43 pm
Location: Seymour, Vic

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#62 Postby Weairy » Mon May 29, 2023 8:42 am

GrahamW wrote:You can pick up an Omark, Angel, Neilsen or similar with a reasonable scope, ready to go for well under 2K.
Take some time, learn to reload and hone your skills at your local club, move on to OPMs and Kings shoots and when you get to a certain point you can decide if you want to and/or can afford to try F/TR or F Open.

You can take virtually any action and with some fine tuning be competitive in FS with a lot less technical skill and knowhow than needed for FO or F/TR, with longer barrel life, cheaper and easier to find cases and projectiles.


Unfortunately this just isn't the case with F-Standard any more. Look at any of the reasonable sized OPMs or Kings/Queens events and no one in the top 5 shooters at those events are using less than a $3000 scope let alone the action/barrel/rest combo, which is generally something like a Barnard, Kreiger barrel and SEB Neo (let's be honest; bipods are for FTR and don't hold a candle to a SEB rest for stability and ease). It really is 308-Open now.
Josh Weaire
Nagambie R.C.
I'm not Craig, if you want to contact him, email on c.weaire@bigpond.com

Chopper
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Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#63 Postby Chopper » Mon May 29, 2023 9:14 am

I still think there is an M17 P14 1917 and Mauser out there in good hands that could give FS a shake :lol:
in the last year or 2 I have had a Ball with my 1917 Winchester in Fly shooting
And in 6mmx303 :lol:
Dont forget to have fun Fellas =D> Chopper

ned kelly
Posts: 617
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 am
Location: Woodend, Victoria

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#64 Postby ned kelly » Mon May 29, 2023 10:09 am

G'day All,
I dont think it is needed, as you have Fstd and perhaps FTR that are "perhaps" a more level playing field.
I suspect many FO shooters on a budget will have considered Fstd or even alternative LR shooting disciplines or even leaving the sport entirely due to component supply issues.
It might be possible to consider a 6.5CM energy level to cater for all the 6.5mm or less calibres within FO field, certainly not 6 or 6.5-284 or similar cartridges, maybe a powder qty limit could do the same but ultimately that's more cost and work for event organisers where the ideal would be for less classes and not more.
FWIW of course.
Cheers Geoff

Potshot2023
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon May 29, 2023 12:31 am

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#65 Postby Potshot2023 » Mon May 29, 2023 11:06 am

There’s been plenty of suggestions to rejigger the rules, but I read van Wyk’s concern to be membership. Apart from the post describing a successful Open Day, the rest are akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I wonder how many have read the articles in the Members Toolbox menu on researched ways to increase membership, let alone put any into action at a club level.

DingoDeerHunter
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Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#66 Postby DingoDeerHunter » Tue May 30, 2023 3:58 pm

As someone just entering the sport, my first impression is “it’s dying a slow death”. I find people generally welcoming and willing to share information and advice if you are outgoing enough to approach them, but for some it would feel cold, isolated and cliquey.

What isn’t good:

Lack of information and poor marketing. I suspect that until the leadership around the country is replaced this is not going to change. It’s all volunteers I imagine and I can’t denigrate people for their free work. But it feels like stepping back into the 1970’s going to events or looking at flyers or websites.

Money isn’t the issue, people will spend money on a hobby and sport - and believe me this sport is great fun and highly addictive!! But you gotta market it and get information out. Training camps, reloading education, equipment hire, special events, social media hype blah blah blah. It’s seems a bewildering and closed sport despite the generosity of some of the participants (though it takes time and a gregarious and patient person to encounter this spirit).

Many events are staggeringly poorly run despite good intentions.

I note in America there are some “head to head” matches in f class I saw on YouTube - some innovation in format to make it more entertaining might assist. I’m not seeing many younger competitors so far.

You could grow this sport by 2000% membership in 5 years with a changing of the guard, I’d bet my last Large Rifle Primer on it :D . It just needs serious modernisation from the 70’s to the 2020’s ina real hurry before it folds up, because without large membership it’s just one tragedy from political oblivion.



Cheers

T

Joe308
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Location: Brisbane

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#67 Postby Joe308 » Wed May 31, 2023 7:01 am

Promoting a sport that involves firearms is not as easy as modernising flyers and sending out more marketing. Having shot around the world I can assure you the sport here is well managed comparatively.

A few things to consider:

- there is no F standard internationally. Our numbers are small. Let’s standardise and restructure F standard to be F open B class and FTR B class. That way we’re semi aligned to international standards, those that want to shoot B class can still shoot “B class”.

- consider patterning more with organisations that use firearms like the police and army and arrange long range shooting days with the police/army academies. We transfer skills to them and some will join the sport competitively. Mutually beneficial.

AlanF
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Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#68 Postby AlanF » Wed May 31, 2023 12:29 pm

Joe308 wrote:... consider patterning more with organisations that use firearms like the police and army and arrange long range shooting days with the police/army academies. We transfer skills to them and some will join the sport competitively. Mutually beneficial.

Not a good idea in my opinion. These powerful organisations could take control of our ranges and change the culture in undesirable ways. It is nigh on impossible to build new private ranges now. If they want to shoot long range, governments should build suitable ranges for them.

Range Rector
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Location: Victoria

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#69 Postby Range Rector » Wed May 31, 2023 6:07 pm

williada wrote:No, Albert. My interest waned when the energy limits were reduced last time, based on Pommy, urban politics. Monkey see, monkey do in Australia. My competitive SAUM loads made me feel like an illegal immigrant in my own country when energy limits were imposed. This is the land of Oz, with wide open spaces. Reduce them again, and I will walk away.

Cost of competition is the problem, not diversity. With the way the world is going, perhaps our skills will be required by the Defence Department in the future which was of course the foundation of our movement. Reducing energy limits is dumbing down the skill set for future use, just like in manufacturing in this country. There will be fewer to pass on knowledge and it will be lost.


SPOT ON WILLIADA!
Last edited by Range Rector on Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dazza284
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:12 am

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#70 Postby dazza284 » Wed May 31, 2023 7:04 pm

DingoDeerHunter wrote:As someone just entering the sport, my first impression is “it’s dying a slow death”. I find people generally welcoming and willing to share information and advice if you are outgoing enough to approach them, but for some it would feel cold, isolated and cliquey.

What isn’t good:

Lack of information and poor marketing. I suspect that until the leadership around the country is replaced this is not going to change. It’s all volunteers I imagine and I can’t denigrate people for their free work. But it feels like stepping back into the 1970’s going to events or looking at flyers or websites.

Money isn’t the issue, people will spend money on a hobby and sport - and believe me this sport is great fun and highly addictive!! But you gotta market it and get information out. Training camps, reloading education, equipment hire, special events, social media hype blah blah blah. It’s seems a bewildering and closed sport despite the generosity of some of the participants (though it takes time and a gregarious and patient person to encounter this spirit).

Many events are staggeringly poorly run despite good intentions.

I note in America there are some “head to head” matches in f class I saw on YouTube - some innovation in format to make it more entertaining might assist. I’m not seeing many younger competitors so far.

You could grow this sport by 2000% membership in 5 years with a changing of the guard, I’d bet my last Large Rifle Primer on it :D . It just needs serious modernisation from the 70’s to the 2020’s ina real hurry before it folds up, because without large membership it’s just one tragedy from political oblivion.



Cheers

T

Very very well said T ..... Same thing can be said about pistol clubs

ajvanwyk
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#71 Postby ajvanwyk » Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:56 pm

Social Experiment Success !!

Thank you ! to every last person for your responses, thoughts and consideration on this topic.

Anyone who knows me would have thought I had finally lost it. And maybe I have. The idea was to post something highly controversial and leave it for a couple of weeks in the hope that it would open dialogue, strong opinion, and, importantly, generate ideas... so to that end, it has been a significant success.

For those of you who don't know me (and there would be many) I am what one might call a shooting tragic. I love our sport and its people so deeply that I have placed myself in many rather uncomfortable positions, currently - Chairman of the VRA, Director of the NRAA, Vice Captain of Australia F-Open FCWC 2023, Captain and Chef de Mission - Australia Trans Tasman 2024, Captain of Vic State Team... To me, none of these positions are accolades or symbols of achievement. All they are are opportunities to try and drive our sport forward, extend visibility, increase participation and enjoyment by members, increase inclusion and diversity and hopefully grow our sport in such a manner for it to be sustainable beyond my lifetime.

So why harvest ideas? Well, simplistically, because I don't have all the answers... no one does... wading through the comments over the last two weeks, I can honestly say that there are viewpoints that I had not previously considered... ideas that could really make a difference!

One thought I would leave you with, and for me, this was the most profound realisation as I made my way through club committee to association council to the national board, is that... The biggest enabler of membership growth, enjoyment of our sport and promotion of it, is you, at your local club and within your community.

Don't get me wrong; there is most certainly a responsibility for national and state bodies to unlock the barriers that stand in the way of our progress. Their responsibility is to generate a broader sense of community, to ensure that no person nor club become isolated and unhappy and to provide a platform for growth.

So what is the silver bullet, if ever there could be one? Well, I don't know... all I know is that we cannot give up and we should never stop trying... We can only do this together...
Last edited by ajvanwyk on Wed Sep 06, 2023 7:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Albert
Rosedale Rifle Club
Australian Points Series

Aubrey
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 10:43 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#72 Postby Aubrey » Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:00 pm

Stem saam! (I agree in ‘strine)
Aubrey Sonnenberg
Concord RC, Sydney
Accurise: Aim for Accuracy!

GlennA
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:54 pm
Location: Nth Balgowlah, NSW

Re: Should we reduce Energy Limits ?

#73 Postby GlennA » Sun Jan 07, 2024 7:43 pm

Short answer is No! Why?, because it’s not what F/open shooters want!
So now we have a nexus between a sport and its members. Remember customer service rules 101…you can only sell what people want to buy!
So, new question is (after verifying what members and potential members want) is to develop a framework of delivery. A SWOT analysis exercise would be a good starting point. Without jumping the gun on that the greatest risk is governments (see WA, see energy limits, see tougher licensing responsibilities etc etc )…all of this is an erosion risk to the sport!
So how do WE WIN? How many shooters in Australia? How many different shooting organisations are there in Australia? Are our various shooting organisations closely aligned and are operating to a shooters consensus approach? How do these organisations deal with politicians and governments?
The answer to our success Albert is not in a question about energy limits but rather is about how organised our organisations are to be able to lead, market, lobby, educate, promote etc etc our shooting customers and governments.
My observations are we’ve been divided and are being conquered.!
How do we WIN? We have to have one shooting organisation in Australia which represents all shooter (competition shooter, hunting shooters etc). That organisation must have paid professionals to put together a strategic plan and implement it! The organisation would have the power of a unified voice (and vote) and that’s the important ingredient that we are lacking today in my view. Currently we just don’t have the structure to succeed where it matters.
Any, the above is my two bobs worth and is just a quick reflection of where I think the sport currently is (in marketing terms this would be thrashed out in a situation analysis session as part of a SWOT) to develop a longer term strategy.
A lot of work but can be done with the right leaders that are IQ smart, experienced and are passionate about the direction of the sport.
There’s a reason for everything!


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