6BR-AI loads wanted

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#16 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:25 pm

frank, that is interesting thank you.
so the pressure seems to be similar between the two types of rifling.
the up and coming test is almost a necessity, to see where the pressure peaks occur.
it would be interesting to compare even faster finishing twist in the 6.5 say 7 twist, and start it at 14 twist and see what happens compared to a straight 7 twist.
possibly the biggest potential concern here is jacket damage, due to the amount of twist change, causing bullets to blow up when driven hard?
yhis based on how paper patches shred out of a 26/13 gaintwist compared to straight twist.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

superx10
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:32 am

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#17 Postby superx10 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 4:52 pm

Hi
I am getting away from the original topic but Gyro my last encounter with a 3 groove Lija was enough to not only steer me away from that brand of a barrel and also button barrels. The cost of purchasing, posting and getting a fclass barrel home on your rifle in Australia can be around $1200 AUD. Barrel rich nations like the US are different and cheaper generally to do re barreling/chambering
I'll never risk the financial outlay again on a button barrel. I wonder when the last big fclass competition was won with a button barrel?

Gyro
Posts: 764
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#18 Postby Gyro » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:11 pm

superx10 wrote:Hi
I am getting away from the original topic but Gyro my last encounter with a 3 groove Lija was enough to not only steer me away from that brand of a barrel and also button barrels. The cost of purchasing, posting and getting a fclass barrel home on your rifle in Australia can be around $1200 AUD. Barrel rich nations like the US are different and cheaper generally to do re barreling/chambering
I'll never risk the financial outlay again on a button barrel. I wonder when the last big fclass competition was won with a button barrel?


Better get your Flame Suit on cobber !

Matt P
Posts: 1512
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:22 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#19 Postby Matt P » Sat Jul 20, 2019 5:47 pm

superx10 wrote:Hi
I am getting away from the original topic but Gyro my last encounter with a 3 groove Lija was enough to not only steer me away from that brand of a barrel and also button barrels. The cost of purchasing, posting and getting a fclass barrel home on your rifle in Australia can be around $1200 AUD. Barrel rich nations like the US are different and cheaper generally to do re barreling/chambering
I'll never risk the financial outlay again on a button barrel. I wonder when the last big fclass competition was won with a button barrel?

Was there something special about the barrel that caused it to cost that much ? A 32” Bartlien will cost around $750 and my fitting cost is $330. $1200 seems a little high.
IME both methods of rifling can and do produce excellent barrels. I’ve won with both types and had “so so” in both. Good barrels are good barrels, doesn’t matter whether they’re cut, button, 3,4,5 canted lands or conventional land. At the moment I’m a fan of 4 groove.
Matt P

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#20 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:17 pm

yes matt, 4 groove square rifling.
I think I will never have another canted land barrel due to the difficulty cleaning them compared to square rifling.
believe it or not but there are now people who believe that hammer forged are the most accurate, longest lasting, and require no running in.
and hammer forgers are promoting these things.
wouldn't it be good to believe in fairies.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#21 Postby KHGS » Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:16 pm

Matt P wrote:
superx10 wrote:Hi
I am getting away from the original topic but Gyro my last encounter with a 3 groove Lija was enough to not only steer me away from that brand of a barrel and also button barrels. The cost of purchasing, posting and getting a fclass barrel home on your rifle in Australia can be around $1200 AUD. Barrel rich nations like the US are different and cheaper generally to do re barreling/chambering
I'll never risk the financial outlay again on a button barrel. I wonder when the last big fclass competition was won with a button barrel?


Was there something special about the barrel that caused it to cost that much ? A 32” Bartlien will cost around $750 and my fitting cost is $330. $1200 seems a little high.
IME both methods of rifling can and do produce excellent barrels. I’ve won with both types and had “so so” in both. Good barrels are good barrels, doesn’t matter whether they’re cut, button, 3,4,5 canted lands or conventional land. At the moment I’m a fan of 4 groove.
Matt P


Ditto on all of Matt's post above, I personally have no preference re cut or buttoned barrels. I like 3, 4 & 5 groove barrels, Not a fan of canted rifling (that's a personal thing) in the end a good barrel is a good barrel. Fortunately we are blessed these days, there are very few bad barrels.
I do have a feeling that in the search for the ultimate bullet we tend to get caught up in the ultra high BC quest. I believe there is a point of diminishing returns where the length for caliber of bullet reaches a certain point, consistent accuracy seems to diminish. I think we might do better to focus on our shooting rather than seeking an "edge" with longer & heavier bullets.
Keith H.

Frank Green
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#22 Postby Frank Green » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:55 am

bruce moulds wrote:yes matt, 4 groove square rifling.
I think I will never have another canted land barrel due to the difficulty cleaning them compared to square rifling.
believe it or not but there are now people who believe that hammer forged are the most accurate, longest lasting, and require no running in.
and hammer forgers are promoting these things.
wouldn't it be good to believe in fairies.
bruce.


I’ve got 4 groove, conventional 5 groove and 5R style rifled barrels on guns. I don’t find a difference in how they clean.

When you say canted land barrel do you mean the Broughton 5C barrels or in general speaking to the 5R type of rifling?

When you say difficulty in cleaning in regards to copper? Carbon? Or both?

Just curious.

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#23 Postby wsftr » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:34 am

KHGS wrote:
Matt P wrote:
superx10 wrote:Hi
I am getting away from the original topic but Gyro my last encounter with a 3 groove Lija was enough to not only steer me away from that brand of a barrel and also button barrels. The cost of purchasing, posting and getting a fclass barrel home on your rifle in Australia can be around $1200 AUD. Barrel rich nations like the US are different and cheaper generally to do re barreling/chambering
I'll never risk the financial outlay again on a button barrel. I wonder when the last big fclass competition was won with a button barrel?


Was there something special about the barrel that caused it to cost that much ? A 32” Bartlien will cost around $750 and my fitting cost is $330. $1200 seems a little high.
IME both methods of rifling can and do produce excellent barrels. I’ve won with both types and had “so so” in both. Good barrels are good barrels, doesn’t matter whether they’re cut, button, 3,4,5 canted lands or conventional land. At the moment I’m a fan of 4 groove.
Matt P


Ditto on all of Matt's post above, I personally have no preference re cut or buttoned barrels. I like 3, 4 & 5 groove barrels, Not a fan of canted rifling (that's a personal thing) in the end a good barrel is a good barrel. Fortunately we are blessed these days, there are very few bad barrels.
I do have a feeling that in the search for the ultimate bullet we tend to get caught up in the ultra high BC quest. I believe there is a point of diminishing returns where the length for caliber of bullet reaches a certain point, consistent accuracy seems to diminish. I think we might do better to focus on our shooting rather than seeking an "edge" with longer & heavier bullets.
Keith H.


To be fair in an electronic world where you can save and review a shoot you can do both. i.e. you read the wind and execute a good shot..you look at performance at the end of the shoot. I'm talking club days here. If your taking something experimental into a regional or national - well more power to them.
IME the new long bullets don't warrant taking to a club day let alone anything else.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#24 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:07 pm

Frank Green wrote:
bruce moulds wrote:yes matt, 4 groove square rifling.
I think I will never have another canted land barrel due to the difficulty cleaning them compared to square rifling.
believe it or not but there are now people who believe that hammer forged are the most accurate, longest lasting, and require no running in.
and hammer forgers are promoting these things.
wouldn't it be good to believe in fairies.
bruce.


I’ve got 4 groove, conventional 5 groove and 5R style rifled barrels on guns. I don’t find a difference in how they clean.

When you say canted land barrel do you mean the Broughton 5C barrels or in general speaking to the 5R type of rifling?

When you say difficulty in cleaning in regards to copper? Carbon? Or both?

Just curious.


frank,
the problem is not carbon or copper.
it is the difficulty of getting patches on jags and brushes to absolutely follow the rifling when cleaning.
what damage can this do to a barrel?
all the types of rifling now available now seem to shoot well, but cleaning square rifling is not so much of a pain in the Khyber pass as with angled.
personally I cannot abide cleaning angled rifling barrels any more.
we all grew up with square rifling and it worked.
other types have been tried, including oval bores, ratchets, rounded (metford segmental) etc, but square worked well.
guys are always looking for an edge, be it in longer higher b.c. bullets, rifling types, etc. etc.
but until we all learn to avoid marketing urban myths that become self perpetuating, and focus on basics like wind reading, our sport will not really progress.
unfortunately the marketing machine cannot be compensate for experience, but it has convinces many people otherwise.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

superx10
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:32 am

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#25 Postby superx10 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:18 pm

Thanks, MP for your input, you may cause a run of sales on barrels with 4 grooves. My math went like this, Around $1200

$ 750 Barrel.
$ 330 Chambering.
$ 60 Post to smith *two ways.

$ 1140.

Mat Is the 4 groove you are using 5r or square cut?

Frank Green
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#26 Postby Frank Green » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:17 pm

bruce moulds wrote:
Frank Green wrote:
bruce moulds wrote:yes matt, 4 groove square rifling.
I think I will never have another canted land barrel due to the difficulty cleaning them compared to square rifling.
believe it or not but there are now people who believe that hammer forged are the most accurate, longest lasting, and require no running in.
and hammer forgers are promoting these things.
wouldn't it be good to believe in fairies.
bruce.


I’ve got 4 groove, conventional 5 groove and 5R style rifled barrels on guns. I don’t find a difference in how they clean.

When you say canted land barrel do you mean the Broughton 5C barrels or in general speaking to the 5R type of rifling?

When you say difficulty in cleaning in regards to copper? Carbon? Or both?

Just curious.


frank,
the problem is not carbon or copper.
it is the difficulty of getting patches on jags and brushes to absolutely follow the rifling when cleaning.
what damage can this do to a barrel?
all the types of rifling now available now seem to shoot well, but cleaning square rifling is not so much of a pain in the Khyber pass as with angled.
personally I cannot abide cleaning angled rifling barrels any more.
we all grew up with square rifling and it worked.
other types have been tried, including oval bores, ratchets, rounded (metford segmental) etc, but square worked well.
guys are always looking for an edge, be it in longer higher b.c. bullets, rifling types, etc. etc.
but until we all learn to avoid marketing urban myths that become self perpetuating, and focus on basics like wind reading, our sport will not really progress.
unfortunately the marketing machine cannot be compensate for experience, but it has convinces many people otherwise.
bruce.


Understood Bruce and no issues!

I tell guys the way I see it with no B.S.

I also try and stay away with the marketing and hype but at times have to test and investigate. I look for real world data etc....

Funny you should say about focusing on basics and reading the wind etc....I just R.O.'d a stage at a PRS Match this past weekend. One of the stages I called out the impacts/scores at 680-700 yard targets. They had to get off 10 rounds for record in 90 seconds but from two different positions.

I seen a lot of guys have vertical problems from improper dope on they're rifles to putting no wind on the gun as well.

What was interesting was how many guys I heard talking behind me saying there is no wind out there and they required to put nothing on the gun going to the line. A couple of times in between relays I mentioned you better take a look thru a spotting scope and try and read the mirage. The wind was kinda coming from our back left and up and over the hill/trees. The mirage was running from left to right.

I even told one guy...."No wind huh?" Look at the tops of the trees right here by the line! No comment back!

Hmmmm!

Later, Frank

Frank Green
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#27 Postby Frank Green » Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:20 pm

To add to my previous post we actually have to make 4 test barrels.

Two with the gain twist and dual pressure ports like I stated....

And we have to make two standard spec. twist barrels with dual pressure ports as well.

Frank Green
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#28 Postby Frank Green » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:37 am

Shot my 6BRA today for the first time with formed cases.

My load was....

30.5gr. Of H4895
107smk tipped
Fed205m
2868fps average for a 10 shot string
ES = 19
SD = 7

Same powder charge and primer
110gr Hornady ATIP bullets
2822fps Average
ES = 18
SD = 6

Barrel length is 26”, 5R rifling and 1-7 twist and both bullets where loaded to -.010” off the lands.

What is interesting is the loads with the 107smk I loaded in old Rem. 7mmBR brass that I necked down.
The 110 Hornady’s where shot out of Lapua BR brass.
The difference in weight between the brass I have was 3gr heavier on the Remington brass.

Prior to this range session the barrel only had 47 rounds on it.

Later, Frank
Last edited by Frank Green on Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

willow
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:51 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#29 Postby willow » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:52 pm

Frank, I'd give RL15 a run.

Frank Green
Posts: 343
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 11:48 pm

Re: 6BR-AI loads wanted

#30 Postby Frank Green » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:15 pm

willow wrote:Frank, I'd give RL15 a run.


Willow, I do want to try some but haven't been able to source any locally at all. Will most likely have to order some from a distributor and have it shipped to me. If' I'm going to do that I try and get some of the guys to go in on a larger order to fill a bigger box because it doesn't matter if you buy one pound or 32 pounds of powder they hit you with a hazmat fee either way regardless.

I've got Varget and will load some of that and try it as well and see how that goes. I know I've used Varget for some fire forming loads and it shot excellent doing that as well.

Later, Frank


Return to “Equipment & Technical”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests