Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

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Rem6xc
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:34 pm

Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#1 Postby Rem6xc » Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:47 pm

Anyone have any experience with ultra sonic cleaners

Thanks Nigel

scott/r
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#2 Postby scott/r » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:25 pm

Yeah, I like the idea of ultrasonic over the case tumblers were I don't have to worry about having pins struck in the cases, which I know I would do. Also, to what extent I don't really know, I've always had thoughts of the pins acting like shot peaning (I hope that's how you spell it) cases. And that just means more annealing. I'm probably completely wrong, but it's in my head so it must be fact.haha....
I use turbo sonic fluid from Lyman in a 2lt cleaner I bought at supercheap for half the price of one from any gun shop. Once they have gone through 2 full cycles, they get rinsed out under a hot water tap in a large metal colander I stole out of the kitchen. Then dried with a small nozzle and compressed air up inside the case and primer pockets. It's done me well for years. But I think the Mrs is starting to get the shits with the compressor in the loading room....

MattyG
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Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#3 Postby MattyG » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:58 pm

Hi folks,

I decap and clean primer pockets with an RCBS brush in the cordless drill then I use an ultrasonic cleaner with some hot water, dish soap and a cup full of vinegar to do my cases. Run them for about 30 minutes then rinse off. Dry and they generally come out nice and clean ready for resizing.

Cheers, Matt.
Matt M.
Endeavour RC
TR/F Standard/Smallbore/Service Rifles/Sporting Rifles etc
LOVE IT ALL!!!

Old Trev-39
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#4 Postby Old Trev-39 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:50 pm

Case cleaning is another job not needed. Shiney cases do not shoot any better than dull ones. Brush inside neck, clean primer pockets and flash holes, and a wipe with a rag is all that is needed.
Cheers,
Trevor.

BillB
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Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:30 am

Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#5 Postby BillB » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:05 pm

Tried both and media, tumbler way a head, but l do blow the cases out with compresed air

Malcolm Hill
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#6 Postby Malcolm Hill » Tue Mar 17, 2020 8:33 pm

De-cap the cases and 15 mins in the ultrasonic with hot water and cream of tartar and cases are clean. The water will go black and and you lose sight of the cases (even after only one firing) during this time. Take them out and rinse off and then another run for 15 mins in hot water to finish the job. Blow out with air and air dry or use some form of drier. The primer pockets are usually perfectly clean after this process as well. The cream of tartar is a cheap and effective cleaning agent and available at your closest supermarket. So far no one has found a way to combine it with toilet paper for any use so it is still in good supply on the shelves. Regards Malcolm.

Tim L
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#7 Postby Tim L » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:07 pm

I tumble with stainless and burnishing compound.
Pop primer and necksize
Clean pocket
Tumble for an hour and sun bake dry. (Qlder)
Anneal.

To avoid leaving pins in the case get the right length pins.

Is tumbling better th asn ultra sonic? I don't know but I'd say either are good enough.

Trev, re not cleaning. I know the coefficient of friction between brass and stainless is enough to hold the brass in place during firieng. This reduces pressure on the bolt and lugs and, i suspect, reduces case length growth. Not so sure having a layer of ???? between case and chamber is a good idea, but as always, if it works, don't change it.

pjifl
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#8 Postby pjifl » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:21 pm

I personally don't think this obsessive cleaning of cases is worthwhile and there are other higher priorities.

My conclusions are based both on my experience and second hand information on a series of tests done in Townsville years ago by some 1000 y benchresters.

Using any liquid cleaner increases the complexity and time taken to thoroughly dry the interior of cases - any remaining moisture is a disaster for accuracy.

OTOH, sorting by case volume is definitely very useful if there is any variation.

Peter Smith

Tim L
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#9 Postby Tim L » Wed Mar 18, 2020 12:04 am

I wholeheartedly agree with moisture in loaded cases. Been there, done that! It's part of the reason I anneal after cleaning rather than before. I'm reasonably confident they are dry before annealing but pretty certain they are after. :twisted:

As for the obsession, it's not so much to have clean cases as it is to ensure consistancy. If they are all clean every time they are fired I figure it should be more consistant than variably dirty cases.

In actual labour time it takes all of 5 minutes to clean up to 150 cases. It's not like I stand and watch the process and I'm certainly not into watching brass dry :|

Horses for courses I guess Peter. I'm process driven, and cleaning is just part of my process.
The only evidence I have to support my process are my scores, which seem to be up there (when I read the wind correctly) and an absence of many of the problems others seem to have with brass.

pjifl
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#10 Postby pjifl » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:24 pm

Perhaps a series of carefully controlled experiments to see what effect cleaning cases has on consistency is warranted.

It can be very hard to factor out a whole host of unwanted variables during testing and a flawed test may be worse than no test. This method is the best at doing that.

1/ Take 20 cases which have all been carefully prepared in the same way and are identical in weight. Preferably ones fired a few times without any cleaning.

2/ Clean half using your favorite method.

3/ Fire cleaned and dirty cases alternately in one long string. Best to choose a constant interval between shots.

4/ Monitor both impact point on a target and Muzzle Velocity - preferably using a LabRadar.

5/ Plot the Muzzle Velocities in one graph.

6/ Plot the height on the target in another graph.

7/ Look for a sawtooth pattern on the graph.

Because it may be hard to do this with constant wind and sighting conditions, the height on the target may be influenced by extra uncontrolled variables. Constant height may even be misleading because of a possible variable Aerodynamic Jump. The LabRadar works selectively on one variable - Velocity - so can be trusted more.

You will not need to wait for the barrel to cool down. Even in the presence of an increasing barrel temperature, a sawtooth pattern will give definitive proof of a difference between dirty and lovely shiny cases.

My take on cleaning is that it is more important to keep a constant case weight order which is destroyed by mass cleaning. Even better on case volume but that is very hard to measure consistently.

Fishermen are influenced by how shiny and pretty are their lures. I fear Shooters are worse !!

Peter Smith.

Rich4
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#11 Postby Rich4 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:34 pm

I take the opinion that carbon in the neck may help prevent any metallic bonding for storing loaded rounds, however I do worry about uneven carbon residue affecting case volume, which I believe Peter advocates sorting by, is that correct Peter?

pjifl
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#12 Postby pjifl » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:57 pm

I believe case volume is the most critical parameter.

Seriously, I think only rigorous experiments can answer the question of carbon or Copper Oxide changing the volume substantially.

willow
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#13 Postby willow » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:07 pm

Rem6xc wrote:Anyone have any experience with ultra sonic cleaners

Thanks Nigel


Yeah I've got a Lyman Ultrasonic cleaner, I like it although it doesn't get the outside of the case looking squeaky clean like a tumbler, it gets the gunk out on the inside of the case which is the main thing.

superx10
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#14 Postby superx10 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:24 am

Hi pjifl

Can you tell us how you consistently and accurately measure case volume?

Thank's

pjifl
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Re: Ultra Sonic Cleaners vs Case Tumblers

#15 Postby pjifl » Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:01 am

DaveMc, Marty and myself did a lot of work on measuring case capacity consistency. It will most likely be available in the archives as written up by DaveMc..

Most literature on the web implies that it is easy. Just fill the case with water. Unfortunately, our experiments tended to show that this is wistful thinking. Just try this method repeatedly on a case and measure the repeatability. Calculate SD of the measurements and estimate likely errors.

The main problem with water is the surface tension which creates a meniscus at the neck. It bulges upwards and there seems no method to accurately control the amount.

The other method often recommended is to fill to the brim with powder. I tried many methods to do this consistently and never was satisfied. We all know powder may be induced to pack more densely. You can try to scrape the top flat or let it find its natural conical angle of repose.

We found that using another fluid which has much lower surface tension gave best results and settled on Methylated Spirits. It is tedious and only partially satisfactory but repeatability is many times better than using water or powder.

Of course for all of this, one needs absolutely consistently trimmed cases. And any beveling of the neck entrance often influenced the meniscus.

All of this is depressing - I know of no really satisfactory method. But we did show that there was a fairly good correlation between case weight and the best estimates using Alcohol. Of course we must only apply this on the same batch of cases, fired and trimmed the same number of times. It is far from perfect but at least practical.

I spent a lot of time trying to dream up a machine which would measure or more correctly compare case volume. It became far too complex and impractical but could possibly be done.

The one thing which was definitely shown was that when cases were chosen for testing with higher and lower volumes, the muzzle velocity had a high correlation with this volume.

I have seen some batches of cases which are probably good enough that this is not a big problem but others where it is and once you have painstakingly sorted a less than ideal batch the last thing you will want to do is bulk clean them and get them out of order.

I did get the MV SD in a Saum down in the range of 2 to 3 when I was shooting at my best. I dont think this is necessary for most shooting but for extreme distance competition it seems to pay off.

Peter Smith.


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