Gordons Reloading Tool - A QuickLoad alternative

[PeteFox]

For those that have plenty of time and are technically minded, I have found a replacement/substitute for QuickLoad.

Some background: Quickload was problematic for me on three fronts,
1. Cost 139 Pound plus post, or $US 211 inc post, so around $400
2. I'm a Mac user, Quickload runs under Windows, so I have to buy virtual machine software $130, Windows $100 so around $600 all up.
3. It's only available on CD, no download and none in Australia that I could find. Overseas delivery is very slow at the moment.

Compared to that, Gordons Reloading Tool (GRT) is free and it's a download. I've never used QuickLoad so I can't actually compare the two, but I've done a lot of reading and it seems to do everything that Quickload claims.
It's a bit sparse on ADI powders so I've been using Varget for 2208 and H4350 for 2209. 2209 is in the powder database but there is more data/testing for the H4350.
It's also giving me predictions that agree with my LabRadar readings.

Some interesting tools included (that I haven't used yet) is a predicted group calculator and an optimum barrel length calculator. It can also import *.csv files from LabRadar as well as Magneto Speed and Caldwell chronographs.
You can optionally upload your data/loads to GRT and these are used to refine the powder models.

There is a Windows version and a Linux version
If you're a Windows user the windows download should work just fine.

If you’re a Mac user you'll need to buy the virtual machine software (or use Boot Camp) but everything else from there on is free. I couldn't get the Linux version to work using Ubuntu. but I got the Windows version working perfectly under Mint 19 and WINE. Sorry not giving out any free technical support, if you don't know what this means then you probably shouldn't be mucking about with your Mac.

Some links:

Gordons Reloading Tools main website (downloads here):
You will have to register, very quick and easy
https://grtools.de

Gordon's UTube channel:
you probably should check this out first. Some videos are in English, some in German only and some in German with subtitles.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEdG4I ... Tc09hUKN_A

Gordons Reloading Community: Forum
Registration required
https://discordapp.com/invite/3FEYWG4

Good luck
Pete

[ajvanwyk]

Pete,

This looks very interesting on a number of fronts. I have downloaded the program and will perform a few comparisons between it and Quickloads for your interest.

Albert

[williada]

Pete, its a little more detailed than his previous program. thanks for bringing it to the attention of other fellow shooters. Good to see he includes a greater range of gear powder, and projectiles we use. I did not see 2217 but perhaps that can be married with similar powders when I explore in more detail. Interested to explore the initiation pressures. Something to check Albert?

[PeteFox]

2217 is Hodgdon H1000

[pjifl]

I am having trouble downloading it - getting corrupt files.

Maybe better early morning. My connection is not very fast.

Peter Smith

[williada]

Albert, I think I just answered my own question. I had assumed Gordon did not want to transfer data derived in QL into GRT because they used different models. But having a look at the expert model Gordon uses, I noted you could add Pressure Trace Data. I also note that when QL was developed it also used PT data. Gordon has done an excellent job. I would also add that this is a Beta version and that Gordon would like some input to improve his program. It looks pretty solid. We are indeed lucky that a few thinkers like Gordon give so freely in this competitive world - they are not Stephen Hawkins or marketeers but their contribution is profound and eventually brings others along in their personal growth.

[ajvanwyk]

Hi David & Pete,

Okay, I have gone from slightly intrigued to very impressed with this program. It has al the normal limitations of a beta/new release product and the reliance on adjustments or tuning of the program to real-world data. None of this is of any concern as even Quickloads provide just a starting point or guide.

There are significant gaps in the powder, projectile and calibre database as compared to Quickoads. This is to be expected in a relatively new program but I like that the developer provides an easy instructional for users to feedback data observations so that the database can be improved. I love this aspect of crowdsourcing the information. I don't yet know how the information will be vetted and might bring into question certain values, time will tell.

As mentioned earlier, some of the values are missing but I found it easy to add both new powder, projectiles and even the 7mm SSS (aka Low Boy) to the database. If you don't already have Quickloads or access to someone able to provide you with the relevant data, you might find this step challenging.

The OBT tool inclusion is very impressive but has a few issues from what I can see.... and does not allow calculations for "overpressure" loads. Now I'm not saying that you should ever run overpressure loads but in Quickloads, I can see how far or close I am from a particular node and therefore work backwards. I don't yet see that function in GRT, but then again I've just started getting use to it. The reason I mentioned earlier that it is impressive, it that when you do run an OBT simulation, GRT will provide you with the powder variance required to get you to the specific node. This is a bit more of a manual step in QL.

I can go into a significant amount of comparison between this program and Quickloads but I will rather not... I like GRT and can see myself using it in the future and contributing data to make it more complete. My only caution, like with any tool, work up to loads and make sure that they are safe in your rifle/pistol... Do not rely only on the information on the screen.

Albert

[PeteFox]

Just posting this info here for anybody who can’t find their favourite ADI powder in the GRT database.
These powder conversions are for powders made by ADI for Hodgdon, not equivalents, but the exact same thing, just re-badged.
Pete

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[John23]

One thing I don’t like or am not understanding is when changing case dimensions the case capacity dose not adjust .

You can also seem to ad case volumes larger than what is possible.

Seating depth doesn’t have much of a effect .
It would be good if you could enter free bore to see the effects of seating depth .


But all in all what a amazing bit of gear !
I look forward to playing with it more and getting my head around the features .

[ajvanwyk]

One thing I don’t like or am not understanding is when changing case dimensions the case capacity dose not adjust .

You can also seem to ad case volumes larger than what is possible.

Seating depth doesn’t have much of a effect .
It would be good if you could enter free bore to see the effects of seating depth .


But all in all what a amazing bit of gear !
I look forward to playing with it more and getting my head around the features .

John,

I assume that you've not used Quickload before ? GRT works on a simular principle when it comes to seating. "Seating" in this context is the distance a projectile is seated into the case and is derived from COAL, case and projectile length. It is not, distance from your lands... You can essentially determine the effect of "that" seating variations by playing around with the COAL.

This is why it is important to "calibrate" your inputs to your rifle and it's data.

In sofar playing with cartridge dimensions, well I guess you could go around changing values at random, but the moment you do, it becomes a different "calibre" altogether. The Volume values are not calculated from the case dimensions, they are database values. Again, even if you select a calibre from the database, your particular chamber might be slightly different and therefore have a different volume.

Albert

[John23]

I had a copy of quick load about 6 years ago and never used it much .

I understand the coal adjustments show the effect .
It would be interesting if you could input chamber dimensions such as neck clearance and distance from the lands to see how it effects the pressure curve .
To get a the barrel time and curves I assume there has to be some input from sammi or the euro equivalent?
I have simply had a crude play with the features but from what I have seen the speeds and nodes look pretty accurate .

As for making wildcats on the couch I will have another look to see if you can adjust the cases wall thickness and if it adjust to capacity .


Have you seen if you can build a cartridge from scratch or can you only modify existing ?

Probably a bit of a don’t stare a gift horse in the mouth comment I made but just thinking out loud .
I like how it incorporates “on target “ style measurement features and very cool how it can accept magnaspeed and lab radar info

[williada]

The makers of QL have a separate program for designing cartridges if people are interested. At this stage QL may be be more user friendly for cartridge design. I have not had a detailed look at GRT yet. But that may not be really necessary because both programs have minor limitations which I will explain in terms of tune.

Generally speaking, the tune I see being developed with GRT is a nodal tune in its strictest sense where group size is meant to be correlating with a barrel length which is matched to a harmonic resonance according to the barrel time. That is commonly assumed to be based on the time it takes for the speed of sound to travel through steel. I understand, this is the basis for an OBT (optimal barrel time) tune. Beware, different steels marginally change that time too. The concept is dependent on knowing a strict velocity at the muzzle. Lab Radar is the best tool to measure that we have at our disposal. Approximations had to be made for old chronographs in the past (except for Magneto Speed). I like the way GRT facilitates this process. But there is more to consider in the application of the programs.

People may get confused with OCW tunes and OBT tunes. The former stands for optimal charge weight where the strategy is to find the best and most stable group. That is where three groups minimum, lie on a similar elevation and the middle one is chosen and refined with seating depth and neck tension. It may happen that a node lies in this section. It’s based on what you see on paper. The GRT program allows you to input shot position and so inspection of group relationship can be achieved. This is good.

However, OBT tune theory assumes it represents the best group. In reality this is not always the case when the subtle differences in harmonics are explored a little further. The OCW tune is a sound fallback tune, and most suitable when a nodal tune cannot be achieved and has the additional quality of stability if velocity changes.

Not all barrel patterns are harmonic given that the illusory sine wave we plot from load development. It really represents a complex pattern of incident waves, stress waves and reflected waves sourced from ignition, the throat contact, rifling torque, the de-corking at the muzzle and an atmospheric node (which lowers frequency).

A rifle is a closed end/one open end, system. It should not be viewed like a guitar string with two closed ends or a pipe with two open ends with the input of one incident wave. The barrel does not have the same harmonic pattern a solid length of steel either. A push into the atmosphere occurs, and lowers frequencies. An analogy can be drawn to an organ pipe, where further additions to length need to be calculated beyond the simple harmonic length. So, I am not sure the correct theory truly matches the practice with the programs. They will be skewed a little if a forward of the muzzle tuner is used on a high-power rifle where calculations go beyond the 5th harmonic which a small bore shooter can reasonably get away with the use of such a tuner.

The harmonic approximation QL or GRT may get you very close when incident and reflected etc. waves are in synchronization or balance in terms of compound and absorption effects.

OCW tune is best represented by tune when the muzzle is in its straightest position, where you might see several adjacent groups in a load development group lying along a similar elevation as previously mentioned. It is not strictly, a long node. A harmonic node is strictly velocity dependent to achieve a resonant frequency even with an open-ended system with one input. The OCW tune is more often utilized in stiff barrels with minimum muzzle lift; whereas a nodal tune by its nature takes advantage of an approximate harmonic frequency which can be found when a rhythmic sign wave is produced by incremental load development. This means there must be flex in the barrel. That means you apply the right tune type to what the barrel is doing.

Assuming the sine wave is rhythmic, when we get down to the 6th harmonic value in the tune, the difference between an OCW tune becomes negligible because the frequencies are so fine and short. OBT tunes can be beneficial in the range of the 3rd harmonic to the 5th harmonic frequencies which are even divisions in theory, of the fundamental frequency initiated in barrel lift. There is correlation but not necessarily causation. Of course, compensation tunes do occur where the bullet exits the muzzle due to real time differences in barrel times of shots in a group. So, you have to ask yourself does a tight cluster really represent a harmonic node. In many cases a tight cluster is said to be a node in shooter speak. In physics, the tops and bottoms of the sine wave are really the anti-nodes. So our terminology is blurred and this adds to problems of communication.

Overall, I am impressed that the GRT allows you to input directly from other equipment like Pressure Trace. You may change values in QL manually too when the chronograph figures suggest the inputs need adjusting when the results are different from the software prediction. The usual thing is to adjust the burn rate of the powder or fudge the weight. Seating depth pressure examination may be achieved by adjusting the initiation pressure. If GRT allows Pressure Trace values to be uploaded, then perhaps this value can be altered.

Both QL and GRT are great starting points to compare relative combinations of components. That becomes a huge cost saving. That's the important bit. The rest is merely fine tuning after finding out what the barrel is doing.

[saum2]

Hi David, does GRT have the facility to make calcs on wildcat brass such as my Norma 270 WSM necked down to 7saum? Or just known run of the mill commercial brass?
Geoff

[UL1700]

The week after I finally break and order QuickLoad

[ajvanwyk]

The week after I finally break and order QuickLoad

James, It's still money well spent. GRT will not replace QL in the short term. In time, as more information is incorporated, maybe. It is a very nice program though