If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

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GSells
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If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#1 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:06 am

Ok Newbies !! You have been dabbling into f open with your Man Bun 6.5 creedmore :mrgreen: . And now starting to think on a serious build . Eg a 7 mm on a Stolle panda f class action and a MAC f class stock smithed by one of the brilliant guns smiths we have around the country. Or even using one of those Kiwi , water pipe actions too :lol:

What cal can do it all ? .284 ? Very close !! But I want to be able to mix it with the Saums at the longs on windy days . The Poor Mans Saum !! Is what fits the spot ! Or commonly know as the mighty 280 ai .
Pros !
Extremely accurate! Sd’s in the 2-3 FPS is achievable using 2213sc and fed primers pushing a Berger 180 at 2880-2970 FPS ( mine 2930 FPS ) . Good for 900/1000 yds work . 15 thou jump .

The super accurate slow load !! The fabled 58.9 at 600 yards was done with the slow load ! 2209 and br 2 primers pushing 180’s at 2780 FPS . Use this load 300 to 800 yds about 15 thou jump .

Extreme barrel life . Saums are around 1500 rounds and then throw the barrel away with some even going about 1200 rounds .
With my Lilja 9 twist . I just borescoped it after the Qld Queens and seriously , the engine room part of the barrel looks like it’s got 200 rounds on it ! It looks absolutely mint . I’ve easily got 1200 on this barrel . I paste out every 50-100 rounds for hard carbon . Very important to wash out the Autosol paste with wd 40 patches !
But using slow load for your main work and fast load for 900-1000 yds you should see barrel life in the 2000 rounds . I guess the same method could be used for the Saum too?? I’m about to get my Saum going soon . However it will only ever see last day Queens work or 800 - 1000 yd stuff and then get put back in the cupboard Again.

Cost of brass !! Saum brass is now $5.50 at Magnum sports . 30-06 or 270 brass is about $1.50 ! If it were me I would go for Lap 30-06 , I think they are about $2.20 a case.

.308 bolt face !! So you can spend your money on another barrel !!

Cons !! Knowing how to fireform and make .280 ai brass from 30-06 brass ( yes keith it will be 40 thou shorter ) . Using standard dies and annealing you can neck down brass quite easily. However, you have to from a false neck to get the correct head space for the shell to fire . And first time when your learning can be very challenging!
Using the cream of wheat method if you live out on a property can be very beneficial. Has no perceived effect on the barrel that I can see !
But this is really the only con !!
Also because of the loooong powder column, the primer needs to be internally chamfered . Eg looking from the necks down end on . You will be creating a cup . This will help ignite the 2213 sc and 2209 for consistent and low sd ignition.

Finally, some form of Harmonic control is essential! Me , I wouldn’t even bother getting out of bed to shoot with at least o rings . Or another thing I use is that stretchy leak seal silicone tape that you get from Bunnings. A bit about 6” from the muzzle and a bit near the middle of the barrel and give it a crack ! My past experience if you have done everything right as above, will lead to lots of x’s !!

I think the Saum because of the price of brass will die and the 280 ai will take its place . Unless the gun shops stop taking the Mickey out of us shooters !
I hear Norma is going to be dropped from gun shops ?? Shall see if that’s true or not !

If any newbie has trouble with their 280 ai . Just pm me and only too happy to help!

Regards Graham Sells .
24F4FEEE-D921-4E63-AE99-75E19B1B3E2B.png

Amazing accuracy of the 280 ai . Allowing to shoot myself back into the final .
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Last edited by GSells on Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

bruce moulds
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#2 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:14 am

graham,
that is CREEDMOOR, so named after the creedmoor range in new york that was the fountainhead of international long range target shooting.
the history of what went on there is deserving of respect.
what started there became the palma match, from which it can be argued fclass internationally is a derivative.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

GSells
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#3 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:31 am

bruce moulds wrote:graham,
that is CREEDMOOR, so named after the creedmoor range in new york that was the fountainhead of international long range target shooting.
the history of what went on there is deserving of respect.
what started there became the palma match, from which it can be argued fclass internationally is a derivative.
bruce.

Thanks Bruce , you are correct in that it deserves respect and should be spelt properly! Just sometimes, PLUMbbbRRs can’t spell! :lol: 8)

bruce moulds
Posts: 2796
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#4 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:35 am

such thinking follows to trigger control, fine aiming, and dealing with wind deflection.
plumbers have to be smart to survive and prosper.
if you are one, be proud.
and do a better job than some of our surgeons have been known to do.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Location: New Zealand

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#5 Postby Gyro » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:59 am

The big problem with the 280 Graham is peoples holding to the negative looooong case theory and how it's not as good for a consistent burn ? Same with the 6.5 06 when the 6.5x284 was so popular ? So can we really get past that 'theory' as not true ?

I'm using a 284 Walker but I'm certainly not raving about it. Seems ya can't get anywhere near a 280 or a Saums velocity with it so maybe I should have just gone with a plain jane 284. Way less shagging about ! And btw I measured the case wall thickness on some Lapua 6.5x284 brass with a ball mike recently and the necks were VERY uniform, so might as well just do a no-nk-turn chamber too ?

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#6 Postby AlanF » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:24 am

FWIW here's the equipment list from a recent major event in the US. 284s rule there (see the last section "Cartridge Selection F-Open Division").

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/05/2020-berger-sw-nationals-equipment-list/

Tim L
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Location: Townsville

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#7 Postby Tim L » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:30 am

But you can't shoot the 280 in FTR so it can't really do it all :lol:

280
Screenshot_20200822-104113_Samsung Internet.jpg

308
'
20200822_103737.jpg


Just sayin'
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GSells
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Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#8 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:17 pm

Gyro wrote:The big problem with the 280 Graham is peoples holding to the negative looooong case theory and how it's not as good for a consistent burn ? Same with the 6.5 06 when the 6.5x284 was so popular ? So can we really get past that 'theory' as not true ?

I'm using a 284 Walker but I'm certainly not raving about it. Seems ya can't get anywhere near a 280 or a Saums velocity with it so maybe I should have just gone with a plain jane 284. Way less shagging about ! And btw I measured the case wall thickness on some Lapua 6.5x284 brass with a ball mike recently and the necks were VERY uniform, so might as well just do a no-nk-turn chamber too ?


Yes there are some old theories that die hard .

GSells
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Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#9 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:19 pm

Tim L wrote:But you can't shoot the 280 in FTR so it can't really do it all :lol:

280
Screenshot_20200822-104113_Samsung Internet.jpg
308
'20200822_103737.jpg

Just sayin'

Haha! Ok ya got me =P~

GSells
Posts: 724
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#10 Postby GSells » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:21 pm

AlanF wrote:FWIW here's the equipment list from a recent major event in the US. 284s rule there (see the last section "Cartridge Selection F-Open Division").

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/05/2020-berger-sw-nationals-equipment-list/

Indeed ! .284 w will always be the workhorse. I used a BART /Pseco .284 w day one and 2 . Very easy to tune and form up cases . In fact p 1 and 2 at Qld we’re .284 w .
So yes another cal that can do it as well .

ben_g
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Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#11 Postby ben_g » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:40 pm

Dunno how you can get 2000rounds out of a 280improved.

For me 1800 is the absolute max I got out of a straight 284 loaded mildly at around 2800fps. I would be looking to have a 284 setback before 1500rounds.

The 284 would always be my suggestion for a beginners ‘one calibre’ setup. If budget is not restrictive a SAUM is a better ‘one calibre’ setup. Just buy and chamber a pair of barrels at a time.

You want better barrel life, better grouping and at least equal ballistics then have a 300WSM chambered. But make sure you have your stock, rests and gun handling very well sorted. If you do it’s the best one gun option for F-open IMO. Groups like a dasher, holds very solid vertical in bumpy conditions and you can actually purchase brass for it!!

bruce moulds
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Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#12 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:19 pm

ben,
what bullets work well in the 300wsm?
i think you make a good point as long as you can override recoil.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

ben_g
Posts: 281
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#13 Postby ben_g » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:34 pm

I have found the 215hybrid very forgiving to tune and have stuck with it in favour of the 230.

New barrel has only 140rounds through it but showing much promise. Old barrel with over 1000shots through it looks better than a 284 I have sitting here with 800shots through it.

Stock setup is important. I recently had my Barnard bedded into a Dima F-open stock, the low profile certainly aids bag handling and tracking. I have a Rucker’s bump buster recoil device plus a kickeez magnum pad which takes the sting out of the recoil.

I am finding it completely manageable. I had intended to shoot only the 300WSM all winter into the NSW and ACT queens. But with Covid knocking off most competitive shoots I have been club shooting with an old 284 to save my good barrels for next year.

I will attach a picture of a 700yard target during testing....

Also a link to a video demonstrating how it recoils, it certainly groups very small with little load development, I haven’t even touched my arbitrary 0.010jump seating depth yet.

https://youtu.be/tGq1A70xANM
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bruce moulds
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Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#14 Postby bruce moulds » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:27 pm

shots 2, 3, and 9 look totally out of context with the main group.
could you comment? mainly on the vertical?
the main group vert is to be dreamed about.
how would the case capacity compare to a 30/06 improved?
the video shows a degree of sudden violence, which comes down to how well you handle it psychologically.
i see two edges to this sword. (for me personally)
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

ben_g
Posts: 281
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: If there was just one cal that could do it all!!

#15 Postby ben_g » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:37 pm

Shot two was me testing wind conditions, it was the second sighter.

Group was shot on a cold clean bore so shot three is probably it still fouling up.
Shot 9 ......????? probably the driver, but could just be new barrel blues as this group was about shot 60-70 through the barrel so definitely still settling in and possibly giving velocity spikes.

Remember that’s the small 700yard target....
Last edited by ben_g on Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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