F-Tr Rig

[Quick]

Ill say this, and people can hate me for it but I've seen many a shooter blame their bipod for some issue when its something else thats causing it. Often its something minor and simple but they dont want to listen so they continue to blame the bipod. You would be surprised how many times ive seen incorrect rear bag choice, rear bag board surface, a loose screw, incorrect bag position in relation to butt stock, bipod mounted to far forward, etc happen and people dont look and just blame the bipod. Shooters, we are our own worst enemy I think alot of the time.

I shot 5000rds in 2 years with 2 different setups trying to perfect a setup thats consistant and works. I think I was very close but came back to FO before we could perfect it completely. If I have a spare 10k in the next few years, I may do it again and take it further. But it also meant F/TR cost me more then F-Open ever has. Haha.

As a good friend says who has been shooting F-Class since the beginning: use what works, not what you like.

[PeteFox]

I have high speed video of my Joypod in recoil, the RH leg is actually about 1/2" off the front mat as the rifle moves backwards.

Is this an issue? No! The bullet left long ago. It can also be managed by stock design and using the front mat/bag to absorb most of these forces.

I don't see any of this flex having an effect on the bullet impact providing the flex is consistent with each shot which means the bipod should be in the same position after each shot.
The issue for me is highlighted by Tim L’s observation that the RH leg lifts of the ground which means that the rifle is not tracking consistently on anything other than a completely flat/level surface. I often wondered why JoyPod users seemed to do a lot of re-aiming with the joystick between shots - is this why?

Re-aiming and pointing back on target is not the same thing as return to position and being on target. One has larger potential to produce errors.

I had a JoyPod and besides being a pain to do major adjustments on the mound, it seemed to jump all over the place, I think because the rifle sits very high above the apex of the sloping arms.
I have a Tier One bipod - the rifle sits high above the apex of the legs, one leg lifts and it jumps sideways
I also have a Dolphin AB - the rifle sits between the apex of the legs and it just tracks straight back, no high speed video to record what’s happening but it just comes back on aim.

The difference between the two mounting positions in terms of return to position is chalk and cheese, the Dolphin wins hands down.

Pete

[Quick]

Pete,

If the joypod jumps around, your gun handling is not correct. Change your body position and experiement with grip and shoulder pressure. I had mine where it normally wouldnt leave 5 ring, sometimes was still inside X ring at longs. If it went to the white, my position was wrong.

[Rich4]

The flex can be your friend. It depends how it is harvested in the tune and your body position. While the rifle moves a lot after the bullet has left the barrel, momentary forces do impact the harmonics no matter what system is used.

Not from a competitive shooter, but I found a little slop in a bipod system helpful to me, prior to buying an atlas I purchased a chinese knock/off to see if I liked the style and I did, so I spent a bit of time tidying it up and making it work etc, loose as but I could watch impacts as the recoil tracked through the leg movement, but on moving to a real atlas I'm finding the rigidity is creating or exposing movement which was controlled before? There will be movement, isolating it to a repeatable path seems to be the trick

[Gyro]

Yes Rich some "joint movent", which is different from flex is often very beneficial as it can prevent the excessive loading that will then initiate flex, which if excessive is detrimental.

[Tim L]

I have high speed video of my Joypod in recoil, the RH leg is actually about 1/2" off the front mat as the rifle moves backwards.

Is this an issue? No! The bullet left long ago. It can also be managed by stock design and using the front mat/bag to absorb most of these forces.

I don't see any of this flex having an effect on the bullet impact providing the flex is consistent with each shot which means the bipod should be in the same position after each shot.
The issue for me is highlighted by Tim L’s observation that the RH leg lifts of the ground which means that the rifle is not tracking consistently on anything other than a completely flat/level surface. I often wondered why JoyPod users seemed to do a lot of re-aiming with the joystick between shots - is this why?

Re-aiming and pointing back on target is not the same thing as return to position and being on target. One has larger potential to produce errors.

I had a JoyPod and besides being a pain to do major adjustments on the mound, it seemed to jump all over the place, I think because the rifle sits very high above the apex of the sloping arms.
I have a Tier One bipod - the rifle sits high above the apex of the legs, one leg lifts and it jumps sideways
I also have a Dolphin AB - the rifle sits between the apex of the legs and it just tracks straight back, no high speed video to record what’s happening but it just comes back on aim.

The difference between the two mounting positions in terms of return to position is chalk and cheese, the Dolphin wins hands down.

Pete

I don't disagree with you Pete but I also don't disagree with Quicks observations on position either. I've watched him shoot and very smooth it was too.
I can get the Joypod to track straight by adjusting my position, I just don't like the position I end up in. I free recoil and just accept the jump to the left, a quick step to the right and let's do the time warp again.
I shoot better like that. I know the jump is induced by my shoulder and is consistant for a given mound.
I'm left wondering if the lack of a wand on the AB doesn't force you to adopt the "correct" position to achieve straight tracking. Just a thought.

[Gyro]

I have high speed video of my Joypod in recoil, the RH leg is actually about 1/2" off the front mat as the rifle moves backwards.

Is this an issue? No! The bullet left long ago. It can also be managed by stock design and using the front mat/bag to absorb most of these forces.

I don't see any of this flex having an effect on the bullet impact providing the flex is consistent with each shot which means the bipod should be in the same position after each shot.
The issue for me is highlighted by Tim L’s observation that the RH leg lifts of the ground which means that the rifle is not tracking consistently on anything other than a completely flat/level surface. I often wondered why JoyPod users seemed to do a lot of re-aiming with the joystick between shots - is this why?

Re-aiming and pointing back on target is not the same thing as return to position and being on target. One has larger potential to produce errors.

I had a JoyPod and besides being a pain to do major adjustments on the mound, it seemed to jump all over the place, I think because the rifle sits very high above the apex of the sloping arms.
I have a Tier One bipod - the rifle sits high above the apex of the legs, one leg lifts and it jumps sideways
I also have a Dolphin AB - the rifle sits between the apex of the legs and it just tracks straight back, no high speed video to record what’s happening but it just comes back on aim.

The difference between the two mounting positions in terms of return to position is chalk and cheese, the Dolphin wins hands down.

Pete

The trouble is Pete there’s a lot of things going on here that effect how the bipod and gun behaves. And guess what : the top guys have worked most of this stuff out. And they probably won’t be coming on this forum anytime soon explaining what’s actually going on, be they from the USA or Oz. And btw the top ftr guys are just as likely to be from the USA, shooting a McMillian XIT stock I believe. So what bipods are they using ?

It’s way too easy to try and narrow down bipod “X” to a few simple design features and believe that’s why it’s so good. Mate if it was that easy we would all be top shooters !!!!

I went to a shoot once and this guy was using a Joypod that he had screwed straight onto his rifle stocks wooden forend with a couple of wood screws. No epoxy. That’s dumb. His stock was a dog anyway ( and expensive ) so he just added to his problems. Then he starts shooting BIG boolits that induce serious platform torque. Hello !!!!!!!!!

Do u go totally free recoil in FTR with a VERY light trigger and a GOOD stock ? I reckon ya do, but then u gotta live with the very real possibility of shooting on the wrong target ………. I ended up doing FTR on the free recoil path with big boolits, a 3oz trigger, a very stiff stock and a Joypod ( with the head tensioned over to take out the inherent backlash ) and shot well (ish). And btw having a coax adjust is mandatory for the free recoil method. Now I shoot FO and it’s sooooo nice and relaxing to have the gun behave so well and stay on your own target.
I just need a Rodzilla now haha. I shot some FO yesterday at 800 – 1000 yards and my guns going very nicely off a ‘normal’ front bag. But here’s some interesting waffle from that shoot I went to yesterday : Target 3 at 800 yards and I had serious vertical ( one 4 at 1 oclock ) so I said to the shoot organiser … “there’s no way my gun is doing that”. He was ok about my comments and ended up accepting my story when we went back to 900 yards, then 1000 yards and my gun held excellent vertical. The targets were E Targets and the SM variety.
Thankfully it wasn’t a serious shoot but just goes to show that this kind of thing can happen and WILL fuck with all your hard work, especially when u don’t know it’s happening.

[jasmay]

Joypods suck

[PeteFox]

Do u go totally free recoil in FTR with a VERY light trigger and a GOOD stock ? I reckon ya do, but then u gotta live with the very real possibility of shooting on the wrong target ………. I ended up doing FTR on the free recoil path with big boolits, a 3oz trigger, a very stiff stock and a Joypod ( with the head tensioned over to take out the inherent backlash ) and shot well (ish). And btw having a coax adjust is mandatory for the free recoil method. Now I shoot FO and it’s sooooo nice and relaxing to have the gun behave so well and stay on your own target.

Gyro,
I'm not claiming to be any sort of gun FT/R shooter here. I'll leave that to guys with big egos, lots of medals, tunnel vision and acute deafness. I'm just talking about my experience with various bipods and what I think of them in terms of my shooting experiences.

Like lots here I started off as a TR shooter when there was nothing else. An Omark, Musgrave or S&L and a few other rifles using 7.62 factory ammunition were the only game in town. I'd done professional roo shooting (hand loading) for a few years by then and I really hated paying for ammo that didn't shoot that well and was not designed (and sometimes not fit) for purpose.
Then along came 300m ISU (as it was called then) and I joined the Brisbane 300m Rife Club, where you could pick your caliber, bullet, trigger weight and could hand load, still using peep sights and sling.
I got John Giles at PSECO to build me a 300m free rifle on a Remington action, along with straight line dies and all the good stuff. I shot a .308 originally and then changed it over to a 7x57AI. This was around 1990 and hand loading and light triggers were sacrilege then in 7.62 circles. My shooting improved out of sight and I was regularly shooting into the 590's. Life got in the way and I had to give shooting away.

Wind on 15 years and I finally decided to get back into it. I rolled up at my local rifle club with my target rifle and found out that my peep sights and sling made me a dinosaur. Worse than that, when I got down onto the mound I found out that like dinosaurs, my bones had fossilised as well. I could still see the target well enough but I just couldn't point at it properly wound up in a sling.

A fortnight later, same gun in tow, but now fitted with a $3000 scope and a Davies bipod I had another go. I found out that the only position from which I could shoot comfortably was straight behind the rifle and feet together.
I was all over the place, so I bought a SEB, same thing, sold that, then a Tier One, a bit better but still jumping about. Then I bought an AB, it just changed everything. I'm now shooting possibles regularly enough to be content.

All of these bipods are very different. The common factor is (AB aside) that they have a high mounting point that enables the rifle's torque to use the base of one leg as a pivot point to lift the opposite leg and move sideways. The AB just compresses the leg but has no leverage to lift.

This brings me perhaps to the reason that the AB bipod works for me. When I say straight behind, I mean that you could probably run a string line from the muzzle, action and through my shoulder to my left boot (I shoot LH). The AB doesn't seem to have any perceptible torque reaction. It just moves backwards. My body alignment (I think) doesn't give it any point to pivot on and move left or right. If I was at an angle to the rifle then that might change. I push the rifle forwards after the shot and it is just on target. I shoot like this because my body doesn't give me any other choice.
I don't shoot free recoil, the rifle moves back and just bumps my shoulder. I'm a bag squeezer, I set up to be just above the aiming mark and squeeze for elevation. Probably not textbook, but it works for me.

I have just built an F-open rifle and I have only been able to shoot it once, but I do see what you mean about having the rifle behave.

Pete

[Gyro]

Nice work Pete. Shooting and accuracy is a fascinating subject for many of us and competition gives us a platform to play on and put all our theories to the test. Lord knows we need more shooters though !

But where's all your medals haha. Regards Rob.

[Azzopardi]

Sorry all, got bored and because people find 2 sticks hanging of stock find it so so controversial, I took the advantage to take the mick.

Peace to you all.

[Azzopardi]

Ok ok, I really like Ftr, those F-open and F-std girly Nancy boys/girls don’t no what they missing.

[Matt P]

Ok ok, I really like Ftr, those F-open and F-std girly Nancy boys/girls don’t no what they missing.

You are bored aren’t you

[Quick]

Hahaha Poor Azzo, It sure sounded like you were having some fun and then it got serious

[Azzopardi]

Ok ok, I really like Ftr, those F-open and F-std girly Nancy boys/girls don’t no what they missing.

You are bored aren’t you

Yup