Milrad and moa

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cheech
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Milrad and moa

#1 Postby cheech » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:22 am

Hi all,

I’ll give you a scenario,

I have a new shooter with a Mil scope adjustments of 0.1 mil (1/10th)

We shoot on SMT ET showing MOA grid on the IPAd etc

For him/her to move desired bullet impact of just 1 moa , would it need (roughly ) 3 clicks of 0.1 mil ?


Looking for an easy go to method here to get people on target , I encounter so many new shooters with these scopes and don’t understand to use them , and I don’t either .

Any logical help appreciated , not a technical lesson

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Milrad and moa

#2 Postby pjifl » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:07 pm

For him/her to move desired bullet impact of just 1 moa , would it need (roughly ) 3 clicks of 0.1 mil ?

Yes. Actually closer to 3.5 clicks although that is of course not possible.

I don't really know of any simple instinctive way to do an instant conversion. Thinking of them as 1/4 minute clicks is close enough for some purposes but maybe not good enough for more precise results.

If shooting on targets with rings in multiples of minutes it could be worth printing off a card with 1, 2, 3, 4 etc minute conversions in clicks of 0.1 milli Radian.

I can see a reason to work in Milli Radians when plotting artillery fire, but today, when distances will be measured via a Laser Rangefinder when hunting or shooting unknown distances, milli Radians seem to me a stupid thing to have on a scope. Of no advantage when hunting and dangerously distractive when target shooting on our usual targets.

The USA F class target is in exact minutes. The ICFRA target dimensions are close but bastardized AND EVERY DIFFERENT RANGE USES DIFFERENT TARGET RING SIZES so it makes little sense to calculate out target ring sizes in milli Radians and simply remember them.

Perhaps prepare cards for each ICFRA target slowing rings and a milli Radian superimposed grid.

Best to hear from people who use Milli Radian Graticules regularly.

I have always been disgusted with the practice of calling these Mils. It is a lazy confusing thing to say. Mils have also been used as small linear measure meaning 1/1000 inch for wire sizes etc. It is just a lazy way to say 'one thousandth of an inch' often found in USA Engineering. Which is why I have deliberately used the term Milli Radian which actually makes sense. Use MilRad if you like. But not just the lazy Mil.

Peter Smith

AlanF
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Re: Milrad and moa

#3 Postby AlanF » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:10 pm

cheech,

I agree with your 3 clicks (of 0.1mil) to the MOA. It would only be when you're converting large come-ups (e.g. from 300yd to 1000yd) you might want to use the exact conversion figure. But even then your method introduces an error of only about 3%.

Tim L
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Re: Milrad and moa

#4 Postby Tim L » Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:27 pm

Sorry Peter, I'm going to have to contradict you :shock:
The difference between 1 moa and 0.3mrad is so small the adjustment of the scope will never account for it on a windage adjustment.
Just consider it 1/3 clicks. Even with 8 minutes of adjustment, 24 clicks is only 0.03mils out so in a full walk back from 300 yards to 1000m (24moa) you might have to add 1 extra click.
20201119_122524.jpg


Just consider it a target rifle,,,,, but turn the knobs the right way :lol:
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tachyon
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Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:44 pm

Re: Milrad and moa

#5 Postby tachyon » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:08 pm

One Mil equals 3.6 inches at 100 yards so a 0.1 Mil click equals 0.36”.

3 clicks of 0.1 mil will move the impact 3 x 0.36” = 1.08”

Given 1 MOA at 100 yards is 1 inch, so...

For practical purposes 3 clicks of 0.1 Mil is 1 MOA or, as Tim L points out...

Just think of each 0.1 Mil click as being 1/3 MOA clicks.

cheech
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Milrad and moa

#6 Postby cheech » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:15 pm

Hey thanks everyone, exact answers I was looking for , not which is better blah blah

It just to get some of these guys on the frame then they fine tune themselves after that .

I’ve even had some say ( I know it’s crazy ) 10 clicks = MOA , next thing bullets are scrimmaging the ground one shot , top of the mound the next , my heart skips a beat lol

Thanks again everyone

DSilver
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:07 pm

Re: Milrad and moa

#7 Postby DSilver » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:45 pm

Another way of looking at it is
3.43 MOA = 1 MillRad
So just round up to 3.5 MOA = 1 Milrad
7 MOA = 2 and so on.
Not too hard to work out the basic conversion,
works pretty well for working it out quickly on the spot.

Rich4
Posts: 287
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Location: Chinchilla

Re: Milrad and moa

#8 Postby Rich4 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:41 pm

Not sure which SMT you use, however the solo's you can easily change the grid to Milrad's even if only to get him started, I do still see an advantage to Mrads and they can be used in conjunction with the reticle exactly as MOA, I personally find them more intuitive as being a child of the metric age it slides into the ten base metric system easily [ie millimetres convert to metres in range]

Gyro
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Re: Milrad and moa

#9 Postby Gyro » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:00 pm

Rich4 wrote:Not sure which SMT you use, however the solo's you can easily change the grid to Milrad's even if only to get him started, I do still see an advantage to Mrads and they can be used in conjunction with the reticle exactly as MOA, I personally find them more intuitive as being a child of the metric age it slides into the ten base metric system easily [ie millimetres convert to metres in range]


Crikey cobber those tractor fumes must have finally gotten to you !! Mils ( milradians ? ) are a totally foreign language on an NRA range in Australasia aren't they ? Just where on earth are they appropiate/useful, or a better option than MOA ?

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Milrad and moa

#10 Postby AlanF » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:22 pm

I think its good to help new F-Class shooters, but they shouldn't be advised to get a milli-radian scope and should be encouraged to change to MOA ASAP if they turn up with one. Everyone talks MOA and its unlikely they'll find someone as helpful as cheech anywhere else.

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Milrad and moa

#11 Postby pjifl » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm

OK - you have convinced me - and Alan has I think expressed it best.

3 clicks to 1 minute is good enough for wind and it certainly is appropriate for the intended purpose of centering the scope on a target which was the original question. But if you want to set elevation to shoot Rabbits at 900 y then you need something better

But I want to pick up on one thing.

1 Minute is NOT 1 inch at 100y. That is a convenient approximation only. It is useful but an approximation.

Measured in TRUE MINUTES 1 inch at 100y is actually 0.9549 minutes.

Present quality Riflescopes are calibrated in TRUE MINUTES and not for 1 inch at 100y.

It is peculiar that I am happy to work in Radians and m Rads in scientific calculations (it is essential in many calculations) but much prefer minutes on a rifle range. Having targets which evolved from the Imperial era is no doubt the cause.

Peter Smith.

Rich4
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Location: Chinchilla

Re: Milrad and moa

#12 Postby Rich4 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:12 pm

AlanF wrote:I think its good to help new F-Class shooters, but they shouldn't be advised to get a milli-radian scope and should be encouraged to change to MOA ASAP if they turn up with one. Everyone talks MOA and its unlikely they'll find someone as helpful as cheech anywhere else.

Sorry I wasn’t advocating milrads for fclass, Peter mentioned hunting and I wanted to offer an opposing viewpoint for practical shooting off the square range

PeteFox
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Location: Tas.

Re: Milrad and moa

#13 Postby PeteFox » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:48 pm

pjifl wrote:
1 Minute is NOT 1 inch at 100y. That is a convenient approximation only. It is useful but an approximation.

Measured in TRUE MINUTES 1 inch at 100y is actually 0.9549 minutes.

.


And conversely, at 100 yards, 1 minute of angle = 1.047”

Pete

pjifl
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Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Re: Milrad and moa

#14 Postby pjifl » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:26 pm

Hunting - I don't think Milli Radians are any better than MOA. Nor are they worse.

The only possibly advantage I see may be an easier way to estimate range from target size.

But my point is that, today, this has been overtaken by practical rangefinders which have phenomenal accuracy. And at really long range, the accuracy of distance determinations is absolutely critical. 10 yards out at 900 yards will matter.

Special sniping Graticules also help determine range but these are just as useful in either Milli Radians or MOA. They are only useful at shorter to medium distances but are not of much use at really long distances which require a precision rangefinder. But they are extremely practical at the shorter and medium distances.

MOA, today caters better for target shooting AND is just as good for hunting in my opinion. So it is a no brainer to me.

The real advantage of using milli Radians is when Artillery plotters and observers are working with maps and where distances are given by observers. eg shift the impact point X amount to the right or left. This can be quicker to implement with fewer errors in Milli Radians. And it becomes a unified system when used by both snipers and artillery. Of course, much of this has now been supplanted by fire control computers.

The rifle shooter has been brainwashed into thinking they are more modern and supposedly better which is simply not true for him.

Peter Smith.

AlanF
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Re: Milrad and moa

#15 Postby AlanF » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:41 pm

Rich4 wrote:Sorry I wasn’t advocating milrads for fclass, Peter mentioned hunting and I wanted to offer an opposing viewpoint for practical shooting off the square range

All good Rich. And besides we're all entitled to an opinion.


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