Annealing Machines

[loneranger]

Looking to improve neck tension in my ammo and of course extend case life, so I am considering buying an annealing machine. I like the AMP however seems a little pricey so I was also looking at the Ugly and another Aust version - just wondering if anyone owns one of the cheaper machines and willing to give their honest views on operation, build quality and most of all, does it improve the consistency of neck tension? By extension how did it affect your plot groups at the range?

[rob90]

Hi Loneranger..
Cheaper option is the "ANNIE" from Fluxeon, Same induction annealing process as the AMP. Had mine for 4 years now woks perfect, I went with the watercooled helical coil..

[JezL]

I have just purchased the Ugly Annealer from the guys at Canberra. Havent received it yet, but would be great to hear anyone else's comments on this topic. Or if they have also used the 'Ugly'

[bainp]

A neighbour has the Annie, I have the Mk2 AMP. The Annie works great, but just doesn't have the ability to analyse the amount of heating of the brass required. If you are operating within a budget, the Annie is great.
Phil

[loneranger]

Thanks guys - I might investigate the ANNIE, although I would like people views on their experience with the UGLY and any others

[bainp]

From my perspective, propane gas flame annealing machines have one drawback. I have experienced this several times when I was annealing hundreds (maybe even thousands) of cases in one session, where the gas bottles get cold and the pressure in the bottle or hose reduces considerably. This in turn reduces the flame length and intensity so the annealing amount becomes a variable across the session.
I first noticed this reduction in pressure, flame length and intensity when I was using a pair of 1/2kg gas bottles on my Bench-Source machine so I changed my equipment to use a pair of 9kg gas cylinders. Nevertheless, it did not help fix the problem. In these long annealing session, the gas pressure drops off as the cylinders get cold. If you give the cylinders time to recover to room temp the flame setting comes back to what it was previously.
I do these long annealing sessions because I tend to work through all my batches of cases before starting to re-prepare my cases for the next couple of competitions coming up.
With induction annealing, if you have the machine operating through a timer, there is no variability in annealing amount for a particular lot of cases.
Phil

[JezL]

From my perspective, propane gas flame annealing machines have one drawback. I have experienced this several times when I was annealing hundreds (maybe even thousands) of cases in one session, where the gas bottles get cold and the pressure in the bottle or hose reduces considerably. This in turn reduces the flame length and intensity so the annealing amount becomes a variable across the session.
I first noticed this reduction in pressure, flame length and intensity when I was using a pair of 1/2kg gas bottles on my Bench-Source machine so I changed my equipment to use a pair of 9kg gas cylinders. Nevertheless, it did not help fix the problem. In these long annealing session, the gas pressure drops off as the cylinders get cold. If you give the cylinders time to recover to room temp the flame setting comes back to what it was previously.
I do these long annealing sessions because I tend to work through all my batches of cases before starting to re-prepare my cases for the next couple of competitions coming up.
With induction annealing, if you have the machine operating through a timer, there is no variability in annealing amount for a particular lot of cases.
Phil

Great Advice mate! .... what would you say typically each session should go for before the gas bottles get too cold and results become inconsistant? ... would you say after 30 mins or an hr as an example?

[bainp]

The time varies between summer and winter, because the starting temperature of the bottle is different. I stopped using gas annealing probably 2 years ago, but my recollection was that I could go about 1/2 hour in summer but only about 10 - 15 minutes in winter. One thing I even tried in winter was using a little electric fan heater blowing on the 9kg gas cylinders to try to extend the length of session.
It is the length of flame that alters (therefore the heat being applied), which you can adjust with the torch tap - but it was annoying to me that I couldn't go the whole session without any re-adjustment of the flame or flames in the case of my Bench-Source.
I do think that flame annealers are good and a big step up from doing nothing, but induction annealers are the next step up from them IMO.
Phil

[!Peter!]

Easy fix for the change in gas pressure is to put a regulator on the gas bottle. Something like this
I removed the orifice in the gas touch and adjust the gas pressure for the desired flame. Flame doesn't change no matter what bottle temperature is.

[Daveh]

LP gas boils at about -42 deg C. It needs to boil to give you the gas. The small hobby disposable bottles do not have enough surface area on the liquid to stop the liquid from freezing if the draw off rate is too high.

My gas annealer does 100 cases in 7 minutes. 500 in just over 1/2 hour.. Have never gone close to freezing a 9kg bottle..

If using a high pressure burner (most common "cheapy") try turning the flame back a bit to reduce the gas draw off and slow down the case rate. Another thing is if it is turned up too high you may have inner cone of the flame touching the case. This region of the flame is "cold" and not efficient. Move the burner back away from the case to get more heat.

If still having trouble with the gas freezing get a low pressure burner and fit a regulator as Peter said above. You don't need a reg as flash as the pic above. The basic one used on a babyQ is good enough.

Avoid drawing gas off that quick that the bottle freezes as you are definately in the danger zone/playing with fire.
You wouldn't fill your powder throw with a mozzie coil burning under the reloading bench!

Stay safe..
Dave

[bainp]

I always had the inner blue tip just off the junction between the neck and the shoulder, never touching the case.
The disposable bottles were next to useless after only a very short time, from getting cold (don't think they froze), but the large cylinders would also get cold and the flame would have to be continually adjusted. After a couple of long sessions I was over it and thought there has to be a better way than this.
I can run my barbeque with four burners full on without a problem - but I had two tiny little burners of 10mm dia with a flame no more than 30mm or 40mm long on the annealer but it caused me so much headache that I gave it away. In fact only one burner per bottle.
Didn't know that there were regulators available but too late now I have gone a different way.

As for drawing off gas that quick that the bottle freezes- when you have your bottles stored outside because I consider it dangerous to store them inside, and the ambient temperature is under zero every night in winter where I live, it is not difficult to have the gas pressure drop with just a little draw down. In fact some of us have experienced gas freezing overnight while camping on Canberra Rifle Range, without a burner even being used.

[PaulT35]

I am a distributor for Ugly annealer and SRTs
Many more products are being developed as we speak.
PM if anyone is interested.
Best regards Paul

[loneranger]

I ended up buying an Ugly and have Annealed a dozen cases so loading them up tomorrow to test at the range. I’ll let everyone know how they go..

[loneranger]

Well I I have annealed around 40 cases and tested them. Not sure if I have heated the brass to the right temperature, but neck tension consistency has improved - I loaded and tested these rounds and all shot well @ 500 yds and 600 yds. I need to play around with the temperature a little more to find the sweet spot where the brass is softer, as it's still a little brittle.

Overall though, I am happy with the Ugly.

[Daveh]

Everyone will have a different idea and process. I only anneal after dark and have the lighting dim. Turn the light over the bench off. Then have the centre of the flame directed at the neck/shoulder junction. Watch as the neck just begins to glow red then drop it.

I might be doing it wrong as I end up with the annealing mark on the case about 3-4mm further down the case than a new Lapua case. I want a bit of the shoulder annealed so it doesn't work harden when shoulder bumping during resizing and stretching forward when firing.

Even tumbling with stainless pins to clean cases work hardens your brass. Ask a plumber what happens to a roll of annealed copper pipe if left vibrating/bouncing around in the back of a ute for too long.

I am currently using brass that has up to 14 reloads for club/practice shoots without any problems.

Dave