Missed shot on electronic targets

[superx10]

Below is an extract from the SSR rules and I was after some clarification on the last paragraph the optional sighter, this happened to me the other week and I was not given an extra shot, the target did do it before hand, the RO was not called as it was a club match but would appreciate clarification for a comp situation. Thanks in advanced

"Electronic Targets – Misses on the Target. When using electronic targets,
if a shot is not registered on the monitor after the shot has been fired, after
30 seconds, the scorer shall call the Range Officer and request an
assessment of the situation by the RO. To assist the Range Officer, no
shooter shall bring fired cases to the firing point.
National Rifle Association of Australia Limited
Standard Shooting Rules Page 38 of 162 July 2020 Issue - Version 7.0 (a)
The Range Officer May Use Discretion
If the shot is the first of the string, a miss shall be recorded and the shooter
shall recheck that his/her sight setting is correct. If the shot is during a string
with all previous shots registering on the target, the Range Officer shall use
all available data to make a determination whether in all reasonableness, a
miss was probable.
This data should include but not be limited to, current weather conditions,
scores leading up to the lost shot (continual approximate centre shots vs.
edge of target shots etc.) any issues or glitches on other targets immediately
preceding the event etc. Nearby targets should be checked for any extra
shots. Following this determination the RO may award an extra shot if, after
careful consideration and on the balance of probabilities, the ET is deemed
at fault.
If an extra shot is awarded and the three minute time limit has been
exceeded, and it was through no fault of the shooter, then the extra shot
awarded will be classified as an optional sighter. If the shooter elects to
discard the optional sighter then the next shot shall be classified as the
missed shot that was awarded.
The RO shall award a Miss if, after careful consideration and on the balance
of probabilities, the shooter is deemed to have missed"

[Tim L]

These rules are a best effort to cover what is actually a very difficult problem to deal with. The issue being the damage 6 points does to a shooter.
Personally I don’t feel the inclusion of "on balance of probabilities" is at all useful because , unless there is clearly a fault with the target (losing lots of shots) it is unarguable that an unrecorded shot is far more likely to be the fault of the shooter than a fault with a target. This means that on balance of probabilities a lost shot is ALWAYS the shooters fault.
This has the effect of saying the targets are infalable, which is a false assumption.
If we say a target system is only dropping 1 shot in 10,000 then that is at least 1 shot in a Queens. That is 1 shooter eliminated from the competition every Queens.
Why do I use those figures? Because I was that shooter at last years NQRA Queens, and I whitnessed the same happen to a shooter this year. Both grouping comfortably inside the 5 ring, no more than 1.5 mins of wind change, no shots found on any other targets. 6 points gone!

[ecomeat]

It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but at the end of the day it comes down to the judgement of the RO. I had the same thing on manually marked targets at my own Clubs OPM one year. It’s even more controversial for an F Open shooter with a good set up , because all I had to do after a shot was just “ shoulder” the butt forward to the front rest stop, and if I’d set it up correctly I’d be at least back in the 6 ring. A good F Open set up is virtually like a rail gun in many ways. So when you just “know” the shot was perfectly executed and there’s minimal wind, it’s just a matter of wether it’s a 6 or an X.
This instance I’m talking about, where I had 6 or 7 X’s on , I shot….the target went back down immediately, then stayed down for ages before that ugly flag came up indicating a complete miss.
RO gets the markers to recheck…..no score marked. So RO calls “miss” and there jack sh*t I can do about it. You just have to take it on the chin
We had older, very experienced markers that day, and I KNOW because I’ve seen it happen….they pulled the spotter and patched it BEFORE finding a new hole. My “miss” was almost certainly in the same hole…or just an enlargement of it that was covered by the patch just applied. It’s as simple a matter as “luck wasn’t on my side” that day, so I still think our RO is bloody good at his job, and his assessment was totally honest from his perspective. And we can’t ask for more than that from any RO because they have to work with the evidence….or lack thereof ….that’s in front of them at the time. No matter how much it hurts the shooter who just lost 6 points.
Your issue was with electronic targets…….but it comes back to the same principal..
The RO can only work with his assessment of the facts before him, which is probably less likely to be incorrect than ET’s are.

[Tim L]

It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but at the end of the day it comes down to the judgement of the RO. I had the same thing on manually marked targets at my own Clubs OPM one year. It’s even more controversial for an F Open shooter with a good set up , because all I had to do after a shot was just “ shoulder” the butt forward to the front rest stop, and if I’d set it up correctly I’d be at least back in the 6 ring. A good F Open set up is virtually like a rail gun in many ways. So when you just “know” the shot was perfectly executed and there’s minimal wind, it’s just a matter of wether it’s a 6 or an X.
This instance I’m talking about, where I had 6 or 7 X’s on , I shot….the target went back down immediately, then stayed down for ages before that ugly flag came up indicating a complete miss.
RO gets the markers to recheck…..no score marked. So RO calls “miss” and there jack sh*t I can do about it. You just have to take it on the chin
We had older, very experienced markers that day, and I KNOW because I’ve seen it happen….they pulled the spotter and patched it BEFORE finding a new hole. My “miss” was almost certainly in the same hole…or just an enlargement of it that was covered by the patch just applied. It’s as simple a matter as “luck wasn’t on my side” that day, so I still think our RO is bloody good at his job, and his assessment was totally honest from his perspective. And we can’t ask for more than that from any RO because they have to work with the evidence….or lack thereof ….that’s in front of them at the time. No matter how much it hurts the shooter who just lost 6 points.
Your issue was with electronic targets…….but it comes back to the same principal..
The RO can only work with his assessment of the facts before him, which is probably less likely to be incorrect than ET’s are.

Had the same happen to me in NZ on manuals.
600, smashing the x and target comes up miss.
The eviidence was a scorer and check scorer who both saw the bullet follow the trajectory of the other bullets, a marker who pulled the target because they saw the bullet splash but now new hole found.
What does that evidence tell you?

[ecomeat]

Haha…..it tells me that ROs have a difficult job…..And that “shit happens”

[Tim L]

Haha…..it tells me that ROs have a difficult job…..And that “shit happens”

True dat

[johno]

If that happens on manuals as you said , the peg should be smashed or a hole in spotting disc???

[Daveh]

I am only new to F Class and not sure how all the different electronic systems work but I do know that with the Shotmarker system we use if a shot is not recorded on a target you can access the sensor monitor and it will normally show "off target left" or right, high or low etc.
It also shows the time it registered the off target shot eg. 10 seconds ago..
This is usually only close shots between targets etc not metres away.

I did notice the were a lot of misses at the NQRA Queen's this year. A lot of wrong target shots and they weren't all sling shooters or F/TR guys!

Do the other et systems require the projectile to be supersonic at the target?

While loading for a club shoot I had finished 50 rounds only to find kernels scattered on the loading block. Not wanting to pull the lot and re weigh them I shot them on the following Sunday. Soon figured out which one got bumped in the tray!!
Admittedly if I was loading for a big shoot I would have started again but what I am trying to say is we all make mistakes and no one wants to get a miss. Just listen when someone shoots a 4!

Tim's comment about the target system dropping shots, possibly regular enough to occur during a major shoot is not acceptable. If it is a known issue there should be some ruling to handle this situation. Clearly posted before shooting commences.
Some shooters travel long distances to attend a shoot and to drop 6 points because you landed a target that randomly drops shots would be devastating.

Dave

[superx10]

Its not a prefect sport that's for sure and anyone who has been shooting f class for awhile would know that. Great to hear from you Tony its been awhile especially your experience with manual targets, we have a whole generation of shooters now who have never pulled a target. Still after some clarification on the optional sighter wording ie how could it be optional if you were given a another shot would not you just take it.?

[Tim L]

If that happens on manuals as you said , the peg should be smashed or a hole in spotting disc???

Not necessarily. A shot near the peg will pit a hole in the spotter disc and generally there will be a seperate hole in the target right next to the peg hole. A shot on the peg usually causes damage to the peg (if not totally destroying it) However It's not uncommon for a bullet to slide down the side of the peg. Unless you specifically look for it, it's very easy to miss. Maybe a small gouge in the peg with the peg hole being enlarged, but nothing a casual observation would pick up.
That's why the rules say the patch does not go on until the new hole is found. Not every marker follows that little detail which means the evidence of the new shot is patched out !

[GrahamW]

Still after some clarification on the optional sighter wording ie how could it be optional if you were given a another shot would not you just take it.?

The "optional sighter" part only applies if the 3 minute limit has passed since your previous shot due to circumstances beyond you, the shooter's control (i.e. a cease fire OR in this case, the RO making a decision on whether you get another shot or it's a miss).

If the RO gives you another shot and it's under the 3 minute limit then that shot is counted.

If the RO gives you another shot and it's past the 3 minute limit then that shot can be classed as an optional sighter and either counted or cut, if you cut it your next shot would be counted.

8-)

[superx10]

Hi Graham, thanks for the clarification.