US F Class Championships Equipment List

[Cameron Mc]

[In the teams our 2 rifles were 1st and 2nd highest scores overall.
We both used 180vld's and 2209. Accuracy at 1000y was amazing.


Cheers
Cam

Our coaches were amazing too

[Frank Green]

Just a point to remember, the twist rate of the barrel you select to be maximised is location and therefore air density dependant. Many US ranges shoot at several thousand feet higher than Australian ranges. That means the air density is less and their tunes do not have to punch as hard in terms of velocity either.

Not all of the ranges. If the F-class champs are held at Lodi, WI next year like they are saying (about a 1.5 hour drive from the shop) the elevation there if I remember correctly is only 820 ft. above sea level. The range at my house is only 600ft.

Later, Frank

[Cameron Mc]

Just a point to remember, the twist rate of the barrel you select to be maximised is location and therefore air density dependant. Many US ranges shoot at several thousand feet higher than Australian ranges. That means the air density is less and their tunes do not have to punch as hard in terms of velocity either.

Not all of the ranges. If the F-class champs are held at Lodi, WI next year like they are saying (about a 1.5 hour drive from the shop) the elevation there if I remember correctly is only 820 ft. above sea level. The range at my house is only 600ft.

Later, Frank

G Day Frank

Finding the right balance is the key. My range is 900 feet. I have shot at near sea level many times.
All my 7mm's have been 1-9.5" twist. I have never had issues with stability to my knowledge. Have used only 175smk and 180vld's.
I now have 2 x Bartleins, 1-9" twist
Both 7mm and both shoot amazing

Cheers
Cam

[williada]

There is no doubt the Bartlein barrels are first class. I would like to think shooters in Australia could order these barrels with a twist rate that best suited their environment here though. I understand Bartein can make any configuration right down to gain twist if you want, of the finest quality. Some top shooters run with fractional twist rates these days e.g. 1:8.5. Some even change barrels to be distance specific, using switch barrels on the spot.

I would point out our championships cover short, mid and long range and most of our domestic shooting is short to mid range i.e. 300 to 600 yards. Note the current discussion is more focussed on the long range equipment list of the USA shooters.

If Australian shooters consider where most big championships are shot here like Brisbane, Sydney, Adelaide, and Perth used to be at Swanbourne, these ranges are pretty close to sea level and on the coast where the atmosphere is far denser than US championship ranges dominated by inland ranges. Even in Victoria, Bendigo a major inland range is only about 600 ft above sea level except Canberra which is about 2000 ft. There is great insight to be gained from equipment lists, but be mindful not all situations are transferable if you want things optimised for your situation at home.

Another consideration is the seasonal atmospheric conditions which are very different between the two continents. Generalising it maybe, but the US seasons are more defined and more stable. In Victoria, we can have every season in one day and we become very attuned to changing atmospheric densities and what that does to group. At the Rosedale range, which is at sea level, I use 46.6 grains of 2208 in a .308. Go to Bendigo at 600 ft, I run with 46 grains to maintain tune. Atmospheric viscosity, which is one factor of the air density as is temperature and pressure and they are very different between the two ranges. We tend to think of water vapour as the big viscosity agent in the atmosphere when in fact all atmospheric gases have a viscosity and that affects bullet drag. There is more oxygen at sea level.

We have learned VLD’s like constant air flow, and we have learned that in varying air flows which are sometimes very turbulent other bullet shapes can give you an edge. Likewise the faster you can punch a projectile through turbulent conditions of varying air density, such as a frontal fishtail over high mounds like Belmont, with a bullet of greater radial torque the better you are off. The practical debate remains as to which is the optimum diameter in such conditions, .284” or .300” when more factors are considered such as BC, bag handling trade-offs etc. In the last National Australian Championship in "F Open", those top shooters using slower velocity nodes similar to which the USA competitors have reported, did not fare as well as others using more stick for the conditions. Its horses for courses.

I remember James C telling me how they came unstuck in the Commonwealth Games held in Malaysia in the afternoon with the high humidity compared to excellent morning shoots. In that situation, the atmosphere may have allowed the projectiles to travel faster than the desired tune in the humid conditions in the afternoon compared to the far less humid conditions of the morning. In those days you could not change the factory ammunition and few altered foresight blocks, let alone on the spot to act as a tuner. Remember that a humid atmosphere is less dense and so velocity increases. Similar to a temperature increase, the air is less dense and allows for an increase in velocity. Combine both factors and you are in for big changes let alone apparent aiming mark movements.

So for those still wanting to learn more about gyroscopic stability get hold of a modern ballistic program and input your projectile dimensions into it and do a “What If” analysis with varying atmospheric conditions to give yourself a handle on the twist rate best suited to you. Your load development will find the best velocity for tune.

[6.5x47 lapua]

I'm sure sponsorship has a big influence on the statistics

thats the problem with equipment lists.is it a real yardstick as to what is the "best" or a list of who is sponsoring the most out of all the companies involved.

[Frank Green]

There are some teams here or there that we do sponsor but the vast majority of the shooters from us do pay for they're barrels. We cannot possibly sponsor every team/shooter etc...and give them free barrels. In some cases we might help with a better discount etc...but they still pay for the sticks. I did have a request from an Australian shooter (I won't name any names right now as I didn't ask permission to give out his name) about a sponsorship/helping out in any way we can for the Australian F-class team for the next world championships and I said we would be more than happy to help out.

Yes I do agree you have to take equipment lists with a grain of salt per say! For the previous stated reasons of sponsorship's etc...as well as the equipment lists are not always accurate. There have been repeated cases where a shooter is listed as having this stock or that barrel or this or that scope on his rifle but the fact is know that the shooter actually used something else on his rifle.

Later, Frank

[ecomeat]

I feel compelled to state that with the Equipment Lists that I have been involved in compiling and posting here on ozfclass, there are only two people who I believe are guilty of providing data that is outright bullshit.
I genuinely believe that the other 98% do the right thing, for the right reasons, for the good of our sport, all of the time. You would have to go a long way here to find someone, in F Open especially, who has their head up their butt far enough to believe that they are so special as to warrant protecting their secrets by providing false data. The champions in our sport just don't act like that here in Australia, in my opinion.
Guys like Rod Davies, Dave McNamara, Cam McEwan, Richard Braund, Alan Fraser and many many others have given me personally, an extraordinary amount of technical advice and assistance, and done so without hesitation. They want to kick my ar#e on the mound.....and do so continually . .........and are absolutely comfortable with me or anyone else they compete against, having perfectly tuned loads and the best possible set up. They probably relish shooting against vastly improving competition, I think. They just keep on helping people
Here in and around Brisbane, Mark Fairbairn is basically famous for his willingness to do anything in his power to help anyone. He couldn't give a "you know what" if you are a direct competitor of his or not. Wasn't it the NRAA Queens in 2014 when I was smashed up and couldn't shoot, that he lent 4 or 5 rifles, scopes etc ? As a gunsmith he gives the best possible advice out continually, to anyone who rings his phone or the door bell.........and both seem to never stop
So no, I don't believe that deliberately supplying false data on Equipment is any sort of an issue with F Class shooters here in Australia. I think you can safely put the grain of salt back in the cupboard when looking at lists of gear used here in Australia. I know this thread was specifically started re the recent US F Class Nationals, but the readership is predominately "Aussie" and I wouldn't want to think that any new shooters or potential new shooters here in Australia started to view Australian Equipment Lists as being meaningless drivel.
Tony Berry

[mike H]

I'm sure sponsorship has a big influence on the statistics

thats the problem with equipment lists.is it a real yardstick as to what is the "best" or a list of who is sponsoring the most out of all the companies involved.

My take on this is that in International and National competitions,the competitors coming out on top,are using the best equipment available,there is no way they would use inferior equipment,barrels or anything else,even if they were paid to do so.This means that their gear is either better or equivalent to the the rest of the field.It is a decision for others to make whether to follow or back another path.
Mike.q

[RAVEN]

Tony well said
I did a bit of tournament fishing for a number of years mainly for bream and there is a saying or mantra

"he who shares wins"

I get far more enjoyment out of showing people how to become better marksmen
and how to tune their equipment to a competitive level.
This continues to raise the bar on what it takes to be successful.

I can pass on everything I know to an individual but it is dependent on how that person uses it.
RB