My bloody luck

[BRETT B]

Brad , as you know i had a similar problem with my Kreiger 6mm when it was new ( 150 rnds) and you will probably find that your barrell has small mirco blemishes on the finish or as some call it , Alligator skin!!! Where ever these are down the barrell carbon will build up quickly and then copper will grab and its down hill from there.Mine would build up copper front to back in 5 shots and by the 10 shot was popping primers from high pressure as there was 200 fps spread in 10 shots !! Not sure if the Autosol will work but if it doesn"t i would use the JB Bore Brite!! It cured my problem straight up and have not had a problem since and you have seen it shoot!!! It seems to be a rare problem with cut rifled barrels and you like me may be just unlucky like i was...

[Brad Y]

Easy. Damp patch of light oil down bore, then fire a shot. When you fire shots your bullets have a layer of graphite/soot/copper to glide along. But without any lubrication that first one fires metal on metal. Dont need the bore sopping wet, just a lightly oiled patch one way from chamber to muzzle. Make sure your chamber is dry though, dont ever put oil in a chamber.

[Triplejim]

Ive used sweets to remove as much copper as possible

I'm guessing you use Sweets solvent regularly to remove the copper, i.e. it's part of your cleaning regime?

[Brad Y]

It wasnt James. I was using pro shot copper solvent. I keep a bottle of sweets handy all the time just in case I ever see fouling that needs it. I dont use it all the time, nor do I plan to. Im looking at trying KG1 and KG12 as my next solvents of choice. I have been using subaru upper engine cleaner for carbon and the pro shot for copper, with a stiff nylon brush and iosso paste every 60 or so shots to keep the throat clean.

[bruce moulds]

brad,
I have just come out of a tunnel like yours with a broughton barrel.
the oil in the barrel trick helped a lot.
you can wet the bore thoroughly, and wipe it out with 1 patch, leaving most of it in the pores of the steel.
doing this every 10 to count for 6 ranges did the trick, cleaning in between ranges.
now it will clean up after a day's shooting with just hopes 9 and 10 strokes with a bronze brush.
p.o.a. stability is not good during this process, but you can do it during club matches and practise wind reading.
I mention broughton not to condemn them, but to suggest that all brands are variable. sometimes the worst foulers shoot the best when you discover the cleaning regime they prefer.
sweets is water based, as is kg12, and many others. oiling after their use is usually beneficial in avoiding copper fouling.
it would be interesting to accurately measure the groove diameters of barrels.
cast bullets will lead badly if there is a gap between the bullet and the barrel, due to gas cutting. I often wonder if something similar does not happen with copper jacket material in too large a groove diameter for the bullet. this situation could also explain barrels that shoot better fouled, as the built up fouling reduces the internal diameter.
there is nothing worse than a barrel that raises its p.o.i. after the 4th or 6th to count!
keep safe,
bruce.

[Triplejim]

I was using pro shot copper solvent.

http://proshotproducts.3dcartstores.com ... t_MSDS.pdf
Does anyone know the major ingredients in this product?

[BATattack]

I was using pro shot copper solvent.

http://proshotproducts.3dcartstores.com ... t_MSDS.pdf
Does anyone know the major ingredients in this product?

I've often wondered the same!! I don't know what's in it but it works really well.

[Triplejim]

I've often wondered the same!! I don't know what's in it but it works really well.

The reason I ask is page 2 says "Appearance and Odor: Amber liquid with an ammoniacal odor."

[BATattack]

I've often wondered the same!! I don't know what's in it but it works really well.

The reason I ask is page 2 says "Appearance and Odor: Amber liquid with an ammoniacal odor."

Well my sense of smell is pretty bad due to plenty of welding nostril burning fumes but to me it doesn't smell any where near as bad as sweets or ammonia.

[Triplejim]

Well my sense of smell is pretty bad due to plenty of welding nostril burning fumes but to me it doesn't smell any where near as bad as sweets or ammonia.

The manufacturers website http://www.proshotproducts.com/Copper-S ... p_611.html talks down ammonia cleaners but your barrel problem appears identical to David Jaegers's 30 cal Kreiger
which he ran in okay but by 600 rds he couldn't manage a 10 shot shoot because the barrel was copper fouling and destroying his groups.
Transpires he was using Sweets solvent which if used extensively etches stainless steel, you use more Sweets to remove the copper (picked up by the rougher surface), it etches more, you need more Sweets.
At the time we were shooting at Brisbane so he changed to another solvent and cleaned every range and by the completion of the meeting the barrel was getting through a 10 shot shoot.
The bottom line is you have to change something so my suggestion is change the solvent, then clean each range until your satisfied that the rifle isn't fouling any further.
Regarding oils, patching out a barrel with oil then wiping clean before firing the first shot helps keep the velocity of the first sighter closer to the average velocity of the string.
However some (usually synthetic) oils can take up to 8 shots to burn out of the barrel so trial and error is required in finding the right one.
If your first range of the day (usually 300) isn't your best range, then it may not be sighting or loads but simply the oil start.

[Triplejim]

Easy. Damp patch of light oil down bore, then fire a shot.

There was a cleaning article on Schneider barrels website (being rebuilt) that mentioned all oil should be removed from the bore of the barrel before firing the first shot otherwise the pressure could cause internal denting in the barrel.
Whether this was just a recommendation or first hand knowledge gleaned from viewing a borescope is unknown but I wipe the oil out several times before storing the rifle and repeat again before commencing a days shooting.

[Brad Y]

Pro shot solvent smells like windex but foams up like dishwashing liquid in water. Its yellow in colour and seems to be water based.

Tonight I went to a mates place and pretended it was a brand new barrel and it is honestly the worst looking krieger I have ever seen. Lots of score marks running down the barrel. Not across the rifling a least but its not all that nice. So with nothing to lose we re ran it in. It was cleaned all the way through to bare steel, a damp patch of oil then fired a shot. Borescope. Copper. Ive gone back to hoppes for now so it was out with the patches and pushed them through til they came clear. Let it sit for a few minutes to get working, nylon brush to stir it up a bit then more patches til they are clear again, let them sit a little longer and dry patch it out. This cleared the soot and some loose carbon out and a bit of copper though it works best on copper if you leave it for half an hour or so. Anyway after the hoppes it got a patch of trefolex cutting oil then I went to work with iosso on a patch. It took four rounds of this before the hoppes by itself was really starting to clear more and more copper and in turn less and less started picking up. I called it quits after 6 shots and when clean the barrel really started to look good. The firecracking was disappearing with the polishing and it felt quite good. Possibly thursday will start shooting some 2 shot foulers and 5 shot groups to see what it can do. Expecting to be cleaning it after every detail for a while but it couldnt be any worse that what it was. Still debating the moly idea and will see how soon I can get it to shoot full strings then 2 strings, 3 strings, a day of 4 ranges etc.

[ecomeat]

Brad,
I put my borescope down a Club members "new'ish" 308 barrel last weekend as he just wanted me to see what it looked like, coz it was shooting pretty poorly.
It had fired approx 200 rounds, apparently.
With bad fire cracking evident in the first 2-3" of the bore, at first I thought he was pulling my leg re the number of shots fired.
But closer inspection revealed it just hadn't been cleaned properly.
It was the baked on, caked on Carbon that was thick enough to actually fire craze.
not sure how long you scrubbed with Iosso, but if "the fire racking started to disappear" with your cleaning, as you were describing..............then it means that you had to be removing "something".
Could it be carbon ? It had to be either carbon or metal that you removed.

My first Maddco 7mm barrel started to darken and change appearance for 4-6" in front of the chamber. Thought it was simply Carbon, so tried JBs paste. No effect. Tried Iosso vigorously....no effect. Didn't even mark it. Solvents like Sweets, Butchs Bore Shine, ProShot, Shooters Choice etc all did nothing.
Kept watching it closely every time I cleaned after a days shooting.....it was slowly darkening more each time. As solvents, JBs and Iosso wouldn't touch it, I was starting to convince myself that it was some fault in the metal.

Mark Fairbairn gave me some of his KG1 and KG2 to try on it. Don't know if you've seen it, but KG1 looks like windex, smells like windex but is a specialist Carbon product. You follow it up with KG2 which is a dirty thick liquid abrasive, on a bronze brush.
Followed the Procedure....bingo ! About one third of the width of the problem was back to shiny bare metal.
Two more procedures...KG1 followed by KG2... And it was all gone. The entire groove width where the problem lay, was now bare, shiny metal.
If you made fire cracking disappear in a cleaning session, either your barrel now has a larger internal dimension coz the metal was worn away, taking the fire cracking with it..............or you removed a lot of Carbon, that was thick enough for it to be visible as fire cracking through your bore scope..
I hadn't seen firecracked/crazed Carbon till last Sunday either !
Could the core of your problem actually be Carbon too ?

[Triplejim]

Brad, I hadn't seen firecracked/crazed Carbon till last Sunday

I've cleaned a few rifles recently where the carbon pattern as you describe is evident.
Usual application of one pass of aluminum oxide around 500grit on a patch wrapped around a nylon brush, sometimes a second pass, flush out, oil, wipe out then shoot.
The carbon issue starts when shooters don't clean their rifles after shooting the last range.
Instead, after having a few beers, they go home with the best intentions of cleaning the rifle but other commitments mean it's mid week or the next shooting day before the barrel gets a wipe out.
By that stage, the carbon has gone hard and you will need a paste to get it out.
In most cases, the shooter does a cursory clean and because the carbon is hard, no black will show on the patches and they think there barrel doesn't foul.
Next layer of carbon goes on top and a few weeks later they are struggling to get a score on the target

[Triplejim]

Still debating the moly idea

I've recently chronigraphed a rifle where the barrel was not performing with moly.
I wouldn't introduce another dimension to your loading at this stage until the barrel is performing to your satisfaction.
The main use for moly is to decrease the pressure so you can up your load and achieve higher muzzle velocity.