Geoff Grenfell and the Belmont wind

saum2 · Post by **saum2** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 1:40 pm

Geoff told me that if you shot first or early you faired ok with the wind at 1000yds.
He shot last, he said he didn't have much of a clue as the changes were so big & fast. He said he didn't bother winding the windage knob at the end, it was pointless. Heartbreaking when he didn't drop a point until the last day and then shot in the worst of it. I guess a lot of shooters were in the same basket. A pity we can't all shoot with the same conditions to make it a even playing field for everyone.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Krakey - WA have a good system for the Queens. On the last ranges of last day they resquad according to position such that all of the top shooters of each division are shooting at the same time and (like swimming events etc) on targets side by side. A very good idea and something I would hope other associations might pick up on??

saum2 · Post by **saum2** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:29 pm

I agree.. it sounds like a fair system. Like you said, hope all other Associations pick up on the idea. Or, maybe shoot the longs earlier, change the schedule as the weather dictates before the last day.
I like the WA idea best tho, fair and shoot with the same conditions.

bartman007 · Post by **bartman007** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:16 pm

Interesting comment about squadding.

It would be great to resquad the top 20% of shooters together, that way you'd hope they would all shoot at the same time. It would work for F Class due to the small numbers involved.

However logistics for TR may be difficult due to the number in A Grade.

As for another variable, where you are located across the range: who gets to go next to the row of trees, and who gets to sit in the middle of the range, who gets to be on the calmer side of the range.

Not an easy one to solve, HOWEVER, could we try Bisley style! Taking it in turns shooting on the target. It'll reduce the number of targets required to re-squad across, and would certainly even out the playing field.

You may still find that a re-squad of the top shooters could see a lower ranked shooter get a better score due to conditions, and overshadow the leaders. The idea of the last day or range of the day being for the top 20%, may overcome this scenario too.

What are we trying to ascertain by this competition, who the best shooter is? Or who was the one with the luckiest conditions. I know Geoff and some other top shooters would have been disappointed with the outcome, after such a great start!

Food for thought.

johnk · Post by **johnk** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

bartman007 wrote:HOWEVER, could we try Bisley style!

Yep, I can see those guys shooting on Saturday laughing with glee about having to get each shot away in 45 seconds in those conditions.

We have to face it. One way or another, time of day, position on the range, how fast a squad shoots (be it string or Bisley style) or selection of the flag(s) to follow will contribute to whether or not we win or lose.

As far as squadding the top X together goes, should promoters accept responsibility if they get a really crappy run & the back markers do exceed their scores?

Lynn Otto · Post by **Lynn Otto** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:17 pm

bartman007 wrote:The idea of the last day or range of the day being for the top 20%, may overcome this scenario too.

What are we trying to ascertain by this competition, who the best shooter is? Or who was the one with the luckiest conditions.

I'm not sure if I am reading this correctly, it looks like you are saying that only the top 20% get to shoot the "last day or range of the day" that is, the other 80% don't get to shoot it. I seriously hope I am misreading this for a whole lot of reasons, one of them being that why did the other 80% pay their money and why would you bother to enter at all if you weren't sure you were in the top 20% or so etc. :cry:

Post by **AlanF** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:21 pm

I don't like the chances of graded squadding if the idea comes from WA. Look at the resistance from the eastern states to the divisional system. "Proper" ideas are only born in the east I'm afraid.

Its actually a very good idea for major shoots - I don't mind luck playing some part in this sport, but where people may have travelled thousands of km to compete, then why not have the organisers make the extra effort to reduce the likelihood of a lottery as appears the case at Belmont.

Alan

PS. In saying that I don't know who shot in what conditions at Belmont, so am not necessarily saying the winners were lucky.

TOM · Post by **TOM** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:51 pm

1000 yards seems to be the killer distance. Why not simply do away with it in favour of a second 900 yards.

RJNEILSEN · Post by **RJNEILSEN** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:15 pm

Shooting TR on Saturday at Belmont for me started with a 49.4 at 900Y (nice). It finished with me shooting 28.0 at 1000Y (I shot late). I think I will be in therapy for a few weeks after that shoot. Personally I think it is a shame that a week of shooting is decided by luck of the draw on the last range. I don't know what the answer is, I guess we have chosen an outdoor sport for the challenge of the varying conditions. We all could go and shoot indoor 10m air rifle I suppose (kidding).

Cheers,
Ryan.

saum2 · Post by **saum2** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:25 pm

I think what Dave Mc was suggesting that ,.. what they do in WA is the top 10 or x number in each grade/class as determined overnight on day 2 shoot first, target numbers allowing at 900/1000yds on day 3. The the rest of the shooters, in all classes shoot in their normal order/squad after.
This then makes it fair for the top shooters to shoot in the same conditions. Hence, no lucky time of day/wind as it is now at a number of state ranges.
This of cause may determine the winners before anyone else has fired at the last range, but still, a shooter lower down the order can still climb the leader board with a better score.

Post by **AlanF** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:02 pm

If it was going to be done, why only on the last day? If it had cut up rough on Friday afternoon at the twin 900s, the same situation could have happened.

Alan

DannyS · Post by **DannyS** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:08 pm

Yep, we can all get caught in a bad patch. Are the top shooters trying any harder than the rest. Its the nature of the sport, you take what you get dished up and try to do your best with it.

saum2 · Post by **saum2** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:11 pm

agree.. it sounds like a fair system. Like you said, hope all other Associations pick up on the idea. Or, maybe shoot the longs earlier, change the schedule as the weather dictates before the last day.
I like the WA idea best tho, fair and shoot with the same conditions.
Alan, this is option B[/quote]

Southcape · Post by **Southcape** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:24 pm

WA does have this correct with a re- squad at 1000 yards.

Everyone goes through, with the top shooters down last, so when they get up, the winner is known right there and then.

DaveMc · Post by **DaveMc** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:16 pm

I do have to say that I really enjoyed it in WA. To be lying down with the two closest guys in the competition on either side of you at the same time on the last range was a thrill. It certainly took the feeling of "luck" out of it. We were all dealt the same conditions and in very similar lanes and it was what you did with the run of wind that made the difference.

Geoff Grenfell and the Belmont wind

Shooting order

Re: Shooting order

Re: Shooting order