223 V 308 ~ range

[ned kelly]

G'day all,
wouldn't it make sense to limit bullet weight to 80.1gn for 223 and 155.1gn for 308 (or similar) and provided the weight was under use ANY bullet (custom or factory) that makes weight. Isn't there a similar rule in the US or UK?

This gives a wider bullet selection for each calibre and you are more likely to get a bullet that shoots better in your rifle than whats currently available and more likely makes the 223 much more competitve with the 308 HBC bullet

Especially given the Ken Melgaard of Copperhead bullets also makes a 80gn VLD in 224 cal.

It must make it much more easy to enforce, I mean how do you precisely tell the difference between a Nosler, SMK, berger or 80gn copperhead?

Just my thoughts............

Cheerio Geoff

[dhv]

The reason for the harsh comment is that i've geared the whole site towards the beginner and for a beginner it's just going to be too much hard work and also a bit dangerous for them to use such a rifle.

Don't feel the need to explain, we are looking for honesty here! I thought the advice was great.

For beginners club shooting, why not use a 75 grain AMax just to get in there and have a go? I understood no one would get anal at the club level.

I've used these in my Sako 75 223 with 8" twist with no obvious issues. Are they the same reamer specs as the Tikka's?

[Seddo]

You can always take the best of both and run a 223 for 300-600 and a 308 for 700-1000.

That would probably be an ideal FS setup! Low recoil 223R at the short ranges and 308W at the longs. I know at least one top FS shooter in Adelaide that is doing as you suggested.

IanP

I am going to do it too, not to be copetitive but because i like shooting different rifles, it gets boring shooting the same rifle.

[M12LRPV]

Don't feel the need to explain, we are looking for honesty here! I thought the advice was great.

For beginners club shooting, why not use a 75 grain AMax just to get in there and have a go? I understood no one would get anal at the club level.

I've used these in my Sako 75 223 with 8" twist with no obvious issues. Are they the same reamer specs as the Tikka's?

I've used the 75's at club level too and they're a fantastic projectile and they also work in the 1 in 9's. Really the rules should allow them to be fair to those with older 1 in 9 barrels.

While the 75's are still a long projectile they're nowhere as long as the 80gr amax and don't produce the same pressure issues. So your assumption is correct. They'll do the job very well.

As for no one getting anal at club level don't count on it

[Seddo]

I shot a 223 (at 600y) for the first time on saturday and was very surprised, they are easy to shoot. i use the left over rounds i made to run in the barrel, they were shooting around 1moa so not the most accurate round. I will put a bigger scope (it only has a 10x on it) and do some load development and i think it will work out well.

[Woody_rod]

If the Berger 90gr VLDs (G7 = 0.281) were allowed, I could launch them at 2900fps and suddenly I would be competitive all the way out to 900m.
IanP

It is unlikely that you could get a standard 223 with 90 grain bullet to a MV of 2900 fps and extract the case. You would need to use a 6.5 or 7 twist barrel, which will exacerbate the pressure issues already made worse by the much longer 90 grain bullet (over the 80 grain).

The 223 is friendly to shoot, is cheap to run compared to the 308, and is not too hungry on barrels.

I tend to agree that the 223 does give up something at longer ranges on days that are a bit tougher.

I think what would be better than a 90 grain berger, would be a newer model 80 grain SMK, to come in line with the new 30 cal 155 grain SMK. That way, it would be a matter of just doing some load testing, not having to rebarrel.

[IanP]

Rod,

Ive been using and experimenting with 90gr bullets for over 12 months. I started off using the 90gr Sierra MKs in my 8 twist, 30" barrel just to see if I could achieve any sort of accuracy. The 90gr Sierra's are shorter than the Berger 90gr VLDs and fitted the longer chamber I was using for the 80gr Amax bullets pretty good.

The accuracy was exceptional with single hole 3 shot groups at 100m achieved at 2870fps using 2208 with standard CCI primers. Realising I could not use these bullets in F-S meant I didn't pursue higher velocities even though I had the space in the case for more powder. I then learned that the Sierras MKs were blowing up and not making it to the target when shot out of Sierra's recommended 6.5 twist barrels.

I have learned since that the Sierra MKs when shot out of 7, 7.7 or 8 twist barrels dont come apart. I even contacted Sierra's bulletsmith and got it from the horses mouth that the 90gr MKs come apart at high velocities from fast twist barrels (6.5T).

I moved onto the 90gr Berger VLDs and the 22BR for F-O short ranges but one leading F-O shooter is using the 90gr MKs in a 8 twist barrel at velocities over 3000fps.

If the 90gr Bergers or MKs were ok to shoot in F-S I would be using them in a flash over my current 80gr Amax bullets. During my play with 90gr bullets and the 223R I exchanged numerous forum discussion with UK's Laurie Holland. He can use the 90gr VLDs in F-TR over in the UK and was keen to see if they would be competitive with the 308W in competition.

During our discussions we discovered 2900fps was safely achievable for the humble 223R and 90gr bullets. Right chamber, right load and the 90gr bullets were capable of beating the 308W even in windy conditions. Laurie is still continuing his quest to humble 308W shooters with the 223R and you can read all about it here in the November issue of Target Shooter http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

Its on page 59 and its titled "90gr Bullets and the 223R". Its part 1 of a 2 part article and should prove to be interesting reading as he pits the 90gr bullets against the 180+gr 308W bullets that they can shoot in F-TR in the UK.

I'm currently shooting the 90gr VLDs in my 22BR F-O rifle at 3140fps and the 90gr bullets are better (higher BC) than any of the 6mm bullets Berger currently makes. I say lets open up the bullet selection like they do in F-TR and let the shooters decide what bullet they choose.

IanP

[Lynn Otto]

I say lets open up the bullet selection like they do in F-TR and let the shooters decide what bullet they choose.

IanP

If you did that Ian, where would be the point in it being a 'standard' class. The whole basis of this class is for the equipment and ammunition to be relatively standardised so that the results are more focused on the skill of the shooter. Seriously, if you want open slather on projectile weight then continue to play in Open, that is what Open is for.

[dhv]

I say lets open up the bullet selection like they do in F-TR and let the shooters decide what bullet they choose.

IanP

If you did that Ian, where would be the point in it being a 'standard' class. The whole basis of this class is for the equipment and ammunition to be relatively standardised so that the results are more focused on the skill of the shooter. Seriously, if you want open slather on projectile weight then continue to play in Open, that is what Open is for.

Hard to argue with that simple logic !

[Seddo]

Rod,

What do the 90gr bergers cost? I can imagine a lot more than the 80gr AMax ($200 per 600). I looked at the price of some 55gr 20 cal Bergers for the 20x47 i am getting and they were dear enough, lucky it will only be a play calibre.

[IanP]

I say lets open up the bullet selection like they do in F-TR and let the shooters decide what bullet they choose.

IanP

If you did that Ian, where would be the point in it being a 'standard' class. The whole basis of this class is for the equipment and ammunition to be relatively standardised so that the results are more focused on the skill of the shooter. Seriously, if you want open slather on projectile weight then continue to play in Open, that is what Open is for.

Hi Lynn,

I understand it to be called F-Class and the "Standard" part restricts it to 308W or 223R calibres and also to the bullet restrictions which make it uniquely Australian. If you really want to make F-Class a "standard" then maybe we should consider the international standard ICFRA.

ICFRA has both F-Class Open and F-Class TR which we bastardised as F-Class Standard. ICFRA rule book for those that may be interested can be found here: http://www.icfra.co.uk/FCRules_2009.pdf Interestingly F-Class Open would fit nicely into the existing ICFRA rules but F-Class Standard has ammunition and front rest differences.

I like this ICFRA rule in particular which I agree with totaly and I quote...

F1.10. The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation, and Match Referees and Committees will bear this philosophy in mind in ruling on issues not covered by these rules.

I would like to see the restriction placed on F/TR ammunition applied to our Australian F-Class Standard rules. This is simply my opinion and as I mostly shoot F-Class Open doesn't really worry me one way or the other. I prefer open minds to closed minds and really like the idea that F-Class applies to the 21st century and not some bygone era. I like the idea that F-Class should lead the way in target shooting innovation and the fewer restrictions the better as far as I am concerned.

Dont be upset or worried by my opinion as I dont have any influence on making rule changes but I would like to open shooters minds to other possibilities.

Ian

[Lynn Otto]

ICFRA has both F-Class Open and F-Class TR which we bastardised as F-Class Standard.

Ian I'm happy for everyone to have an opinion and yours certainly doesn't upset or worry me. I would however like to clarify this point that you make since we did not bastardise ICFRA anything to get our F Class, Standard or Open. You were in fact closer to the truth in your first paragraph with "which make it uniquely Australian", because that is what we have.

The concept and framework for our F Class was put together here by Australian shooters for our specific requirements, not copied from any other country and it was just F Class. It was intended to be exactly what rule F1.10 says, "The spirit of the F-Class Rules is to encourage innovation", it was for those that wanted to play. The Standard class was derived later with a distinction between Standard and 'Open' for those that wanted to have more entry level equipment along the lines of TR but with the benefits of rests and scopes.

This is Australia, these are Australian rules for Australian shooters in Australian condition...be proud of it.

Lynn

**note to Alan...we need an emoticon of an Australian flag so I can show that I am proud to be Australian.

[jerryatric]

hi, ive been using both the 223 & 308 in f class for a few years . in the end i got rid of the 223 as it can be a bit of a disapointment on a windy day - FOR ME ANYWAY - its too late after u get to the range & think to yourself - i should have brought my 308 , instead i only use a 308 now from 100 yards tp 1000 yards - same load , no stuffing around , i use 155 gr dwyers which for me shoot better than any 223 bullet ive found , as u mentoined the part on using the same gun on rabbits ect well its very hard to buy a target rifle that will be accurate out to 1000 yards then carry it through the bush to shoot rabbits . NOTE i have used my 308 target setup on rabbits / foxes / pigs / goats ect in daylight using bipod on back of ute . but its not hunting - its more like plinkering/sniping .

[dhv]

Hi,

Agreed there is a difference between hunting and vermin control. I was referring to pest control (spotlighting), not hunting when I spoke of possible dual use, and in my case that would mostly mean roos under permit with the occasional rabbit / fox thrown in.