Ok,boys and girls hear goes the first question of many.
I have some exp with rifles.
Back home I ran a Rem 220 swift,glass bedded,jewell trigger,pinical rail
and a suppressor(legal back home go figure)with a smidth/bender 3-14/56
post and rail.
We shot with factory ammo as we could not reload,mine was federal
balistic tip 55grn SBTHP.
It held 3/4" 4 shot group at 160 mts cold barell.
Now fast foward to AUS whare men are men and shoot out to 1000mts
My question is this, what is the best PRACTICAL CAL for long range use
other than exotic cals(ie 338 lap mag or 6.5-284 norma) that has a good b/c and decent barell life. My choice is toward 6.5-55 swedish.
Any thoughts would be great as this all new to Me.
PS.
If it could shoot around corners and ask for directions while adgusting
for the correct range would be great.
WHAT CAL
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AlanF
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Calibres - where do we start...
Firstly, you need to decide whether its going to be F-Std or F-Open. If F-Std then there are just two calibres allowed .223 Rem or .308 Win. They both have advantages and both are used at the top level in F-Std.
But if you've owned a .220 Swift (4000fps on a good day?), then you probably will want something a little more exciting (note that I DIDN"T say less boring
). In F-Open there is a multitude of calibres used between .22 and .300 (BTW you're generally only allowed up to 8mm so the .338 you mentioned is out of the question). The most popular bore sizes are 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm, and of those, 6mm is probably the most popular Australia wide. They include 6BR, 6 Dasher, 6BRX, 6XC, 6-6.5x47, 243Win and 243AI. If you want decent barrel life, then the first 3 would be best, but what you save in barrel life you give up in velocity of course. In 6.5mm there is 6.5-284, 6.5x55 standard and AI, 6.5HI, 6.5x47, 260Rem plus a few minor variations on some of the above. In 7mm there is .284Win, 280AI, 7mm-08 plus variations.
If you have definitely decided to be a one gun shooter, then that does narrow the field somewhat - I personally wouldn't rely solely on any of the 6mm chamberings if I expected to be shooting 800yds and over on a regular basis. 6mms can be super accurate at 1000yds and even beyond when conditions are steady, but if it cuts up rough at the longs then watch the 6.5s and 7s go up the leader board. And I personally wouldn't want to shoot a 7mm at every range of a Queens shoot (except maybe a 7mm-08 or similar), simply because the recoil from those heavy bullets (usually 168 to 180gn) may become tiring, but some can a handle it.
So that leaves 6.5mm (I can hear the groans from here - bloody Fraser - what else did you expect from him
). As with the 6mms you have to get a balance between velocity and barrel life. There is no doubt that 6.5-284s are harder on barrels than most other cals - but they are also very successful in F-Class worldwide. But if you want good barrel life in 6.5mm then any of the list above (excluding 6.5-284 and perhaps 6.5x55AI) should give you at least 2000 rounds accuracy life. My personal preference for a "budget" 6.5 would be out of 6.5x55 Swede or 6.5x47 Norma. I believe they can both comfortably get 2850fps with 140gn class projectiles.
Of course if you decide that two guns are best, then you could do a lot worse than 6BR coupled with 284Win (a switch-barrel setup maybe), both good on barrels, and giving you excellent flexibility to cope with different ranges and conditions. And if you want to go outside those bore sizes, I've seen .223 Rem, 22-250, .22BR, .257Roberts, .308Win, 30/06AI, .30-284, 30WSM, and 300WinMag (ouch) on the mound.
Whew - that took a while. Okay everyone, who's next? I'm sure there will be widely differing opinions on this.
Alan
Firstly, you need to decide whether its going to be F-Std or F-Open. If F-Std then there are just two calibres allowed .223 Rem or .308 Win. They both have advantages and both are used at the top level in F-Std.
But if you've owned a .220 Swift (4000fps on a good day?), then you probably will want something a little more exciting (note that I DIDN"T say less boring
). In F-Open there is a multitude of calibres used between .22 and .300 (BTW you're generally only allowed up to 8mm so the .338 you mentioned is out of the question). The most popular bore sizes are 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm, and of those, 6mm is probably the most popular Australia wide. They include 6BR, 6 Dasher, 6BRX, 6XC, 6-6.5x47, 243Win and 243AI. If you want decent barrel life, then the first 3 would be best, but what you save in barrel life you give up in velocity of course. In 6.5mm there is 6.5-284, 6.5x55 standard and AI, 6.5HI, 6.5x47, 260Rem plus a few minor variations on some of the above. In 7mm there is .284Win, 280AI, 7mm-08 plus variations.
If you have definitely decided to be a one gun shooter, then that does narrow the field somewhat - I personally wouldn't rely solely on any of the 6mm chamberings if I expected to be shooting 800yds and over on a regular basis. 6mms can be super accurate at 1000yds and even beyond when conditions are steady, but if it cuts up rough at the longs then watch the 6.5s and 7s go up the leader board. And I personally wouldn't want to shoot a 7mm at every range of a Queens shoot (except maybe a 7mm-08 or similar), simply because the recoil from those heavy bullets (usually 168 to 180gn) may become tiring, but some can a handle it.
So that leaves 6.5mm (I can hear the groans from here - bloody Fraser - what else did you expect from him
). As with the 6mms you have to get a balance between velocity and barrel life. There is no doubt that 6.5-284s are harder on barrels than most other cals - but they are also very successful in F-Class worldwide. But if you want good barrel life in 6.5mm then any of the list above (excluding 6.5-284 and perhaps 6.5x55AI) should give you at least 2000 rounds accuracy life. My personal preference for a "budget" 6.5 would be out of 6.5x55 Swede or 6.5x47 Norma. I believe they can both comfortably get 2850fps with 140gn class projectiles.
Of course if you decide that two guns are best, then you could do a lot worse than 6BR coupled with 284Win (a switch-barrel setup maybe), both good on barrels, and giving you excellent flexibility to cope with different ranges and conditions. And if you want to go outside those bore sizes, I've seen .223 Rem, 22-250, .22BR, .257Roberts, .308Win, 30/06AI, .30-284, 30WSM, and 300WinMag (ouch) on the mound.
Whew - that took a while. Okay everyone, who's next? I'm sure there will be widely differing opinions on this.
Alan
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Woody_rod
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Alan, that is a great answer.
Maybe a bit of thought from other perspectives:
Anything like a wildcat, or even hard to get brass can be expensive. Common chamberings can be easier to load for (well known data), brass is easy to get, lots of smiths have the reamers for common calibers (this is more an issue outside the long range world of 'smiths) - i.e., 223, 308, 243 and maybe the .260 are very common.
Bigger calibers also use more powder, therefore cost more to run. Bigger bullets generally cost more, but not always. Barrel burners cost a lot to run in barrels as mentioned by Alan. This all might not seem to be a big issue now, but it can be crippling if you compete and shoot 1000 to 1500 rounds per year like a lot of people do.
That is near a barrel a year for the barrel burners, and lots more powder, not to mention the shoulder pain!
From what our f open guys in WA have told me, they like using the 6.5-284, but it is just too much gun in the whole picture. They now use a lot of 6BR/6XC, 6 x 47L, and are now playing with 6.5 x 47L. I think the main reason for the newly popular lapua chamber is they are very efficient.
My 2 cents if I had to make a recommendation:
Go for the 223 in F standard. There are cr4p loads of people now shooting in the class, they are cheap to load, accurate, less noise and barrels can last 3-5000 rounds. You will gets lots of advice, plenty of windage practice, and lots of competition which is great. They are also low recoil, and can use a lighter rifle if you dont have an uber expensive unit already - in other words, a TR crossover which is very common as a conversion to FS.
Going with Keiths suggestion, you also need not worry about much with your loads in FS, as you have little room to move anyway. This means you can then concentrate on what really matters - being able to read conditions and pulling a good shot.
A lot of the theory about which calibers are best only serves as a distraction from what is important = shooting the highest score..
Maybe a bit of thought from other perspectives:
Anything like a wildcat, or even hard to get brass can be expensive. Common chamberings can be easier to load for (well known data), brass is easy to get, lots of smiths have the reamers for common calibers (this is more an issue outside the long range world of 'smiths) - i.e., 223, 308, 243 and maybe the .260 are very common.
Bigger calibers also use more powder, therefore cost more to run. Bigger bullets generally cost more, but not always. Barrel burners cost a lot to run in barrels as mentioned by Alan. This all might not seem to be a big issue now, but it can be crippling if you compete and shoot 1000 to 1500 rounds per year like a lot of people do.
That is near a barrel a year for the barrel burners, and lots more powder, not to mention the shoulder pain!
From what our f open guys in WA have told me, they like using the 6.5-284, but it is just too much gun in the whole picture. They now use a lot of 6BR/6XC, 6 x 47L, and are now playing with 6.5 x 47L. I think the main reason for the newly popular lapua chamber is they are very efficient.
My 2 cents if I had to make a recommendation:
Go for the 223 in F standard. There are cr4p loads of people now shooting in the class, they are cheap to load, accurate, less noise and barrels can last 3-5000 rounds. You will gets lots of advice, plenty of windage practice, and lots of competition which is great. They are also low recoil, and can use a lighter rifle if you dont have an uber expensive unit already - in other words, a TR crossover which is very common as a conversion to FS.
Going with Keiths suggestion, you also need not worry about much with your loads in FS, as you have little room to move anyway. This means you can then concentrate on what really matters - being able to read conditions and pulling a good shot.
A lot of the theory about which calibers are best only serves as a distraction from what is important = shooting the highest score..
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AlanF
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Lynn,
I hope more people put in their 2 cents worth, and I can "stick" it at the top of the Technical Forum .
Rod,
My preferences are probably biased a bit towards shooting Queens, and my home range has nearly 20 shoots a year of 800yds or more, hence my reluctance to rely solely on a 6mm. But I know that many rarely or never go to Queens (sadly F-Open seems to be lost from the WA Queens), and concentrate on prizemeetings which are often 3-5-600 yds. For them there is little need for anything above 6mm. In the UK where the normal course of fire is 800-900-1000yds, 7mm is becoming the most popular bore size i.e. even 6.5mm won't cut it according to the Poms. And they don't mind a bit of recoil, using calibres like 7mmWSM and SAUM. The US F-Class Team is taking 6.5-284s to Bisley in July - will be interesting to see how they go against the 7s.
Alan
I hope more people put in their 2 cents worth, and I can "stick" it at the top of the Technical Forum
.
Woody_Rod wrote:From what our f open guys in WA have told me, they like using the 6.5-284, but it is just too much gun in the whole picture. They now use a lot of 6BR/6XC, 6 x 47L
Rod,
My preferences are probably biased a bit towards shooting Queens, and my home range has nearly 20 shoots a year of 800yds or more, hence my reluctance to rely solely on a 6mm. But I know that many rarely or never go to Queens (sadly F-Open seems to be lost from the WA Queens), and concentrate on prizemeetings which are often 3-5-600 yds. For them there is little need for anything above 6mm. In the UK where the normal course of fire is 800-900-1000yds, 7mm is becoming the most popular bore size i.e. even 6.5mm won't cut it according to the Poms. And they don't mind a bit of recoil, using calibres like 7mmWSM and SAUM. The US F-Class Team is taking 6.5-284s to Bisley in July - will be interesting to see how they go against the 7s.
Alan
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timothi3197
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Gidday Patrick, just another perspective,
There is no F open really here in TAS just F standard, I started out with a .308 omark last year shooting Targetrifle(no scope) went to F standard(scoped) a few months ago(averaging 56 and have had a possible) and have finally bit the bullet and now have a .223 stainless barreled Omark on the way.
The main reason for me going to .223 was my son (11) is starting soon and I want something he is able to use comfortably(I am modifying a standard stock) and I am not a fan of recoil either otherwise I would have stuck with my old $300 Omark.
I will still keep the old girl, she is accurate and has less than 1000 on her, but there is nothing that a .223 can't do cheaper (apparently).
But then a .223 is a known safe formula really and the others may be more fun for you to play with.
Just my very humble opinion and bear in mind I have only been in the sport eighteen months. The guru's above are a good source of advice.
Kind regards,
Tim
(We came from Ireland in 1830, courtesy of the British government)
There is no F open really here in TAS just F standard, I started out with a .308 omark last year shooting Targetrifle(no scope) went to F standard(scoped) a few months ago(averaging 56 and have had a possible) and have finally bit the bullet and now have a .223 stainless barreled Omark on the way.
The main reason for me going to .223 was my son (11) is starting soon and I want something he is able to use comfortably(I am modifying a standard stock) and I am not a fan of recoil either otherwise I would have stuck with my old $300 Omark.
I will still keep the old girl, she is accurate and has less than 1000 on her, but there is nothing that a .223 can't do cheaper (apparently).
But then a .223 is a known safe formula really and the others may be more fun for you to play with.
Just my very humble opinion and bear in mind I have only been in the sport eighteen months. The guru's above are a good source of advice.
Kind regards,
Tim
(We came from Ireland in 1830, courtesy of the British government)
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Woody_rod
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This is a great thread. Sticky is well worth it.
True enough on the lack of FO in WA, but due to the very strong and getting stronger, FS discipline in WA, I think FO will be back eventually. I am thinking a .260AI will do the job when it does
The 223 in FS make a very strong argument, even against theoretically "better" rounds. Today, for example, I rebarrelled my wifes rifle from a "borrowed" 308 action and barrel, to the now 223/8 Twist.
Hmmm, wonder how a 223AI using the 90gr SMK and 7 twist would go in FO?
True enough on the lack of FO in WA, but due to the very strong and getting stronger, FS discipline in WA, I think FO will be back eventually. I am thinking a .260AI will do the job when it does
The 223 in FS make a very strong argument, even against theoretically "better" rounds. Today, for example, I rebarrelled my wifes rifle from a "borrowed" 308 action and barrel, to the now 223/8 Twist.
Hmmm, wonder how a 223AI using the 90gr SMK and 7 twist would go in FO?
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Cameron Mc
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Re: WHAT CAL
celtic12bore wrote:b/c and decent barell life. My choice is toward 6.5-55 swedish.
Any thoughts would be great as this all new to Me.
PS.
If it could shoot around corners and ask for directions while adgusting
for the correct range would be great.
Interesting you mention the 6.5x55. My wife uses a 6.5x55 at the longer rangers in FO and if she does her part it is competitive.
Last weekend at home she shot it at 300yds to check the wind zero. Conditions were good. On the second range I marked her target and measured the group at just on 1/2" for 10 shots.
Not bad for an old cartridge I reckon.
Lapua 6.5x55 brass is excellent and barrel life is quite reasonable.
I will stay with my 284. The great thing about FOpen is you get to choose what cartridge you think will work.
Cameron
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AlanF
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Re: WHAT CAL
Cameron Mc wrote:...On the second range I marked her target and measured the group at just on 1/2" for 10 shots...
Now that is good
!! Are you revealing any load details?
Alan
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Cameron Mc
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Paul Janzso
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Hi Patric
Last year I built up a 300WSM and started using 220 gn. Sierra Match Kings at a velocity of 2850 fps.
Well I thought it was good enough so I had my first crack at the S. A. Queens and tied in at 3rd place.
I have now changed to the 210gn Berger VLD projectiles and the rest is history.
I think the heavier 210gn, 30cal and 180gn, 7mm projectiles are the way to go. "Heavy recoil" other shooters will be saying, well you have a weight limit of 10kg in F Class Open and that will soak up most of the recoil.
Thats my 5c worth.
Patric, you have been to Murray Bridge Rifle Club before, come out again, you are always welcome to try most club members rifles. That gives you first hand experience how diferent calibers preform and what recoil is like.
Cheers
Paul
Last year I built up a 300WSM and started using 220 gn. Sierra Match Kings at a velocity of 2850 fps.
Well I thought it was good enough so I had my first crack at the S. A. Queens and tied in at 3rd place.
I have now changed to the 210gn Berger VLD projectiles and the rest is history.
I think the heavier 210gn, 30cal and 180gn, 7mm projectiles are the way to go. "Heavy recoil" other shooters will be saying, well you have a weight limit of 10kg in F Class Open and that will soak up most of the recoil.
Thats my 5c worth.
Patric, you have been to Murray Bridge Rifle Club before, come out again, you are always welcome to try most club members rifles. That gives you first hand experience how diferent calibers preform and what recoil is like.
Cheers
Paul
Time's a wasted wot's not spent shooti'n BARNARD 300WSM's
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littlebang556
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223AI
Woody_rod wrote:
Hmmm, wonder how a 223AI using the 90gr SMK and 7 twist would go in FO?
I would have one of those tomorrow if TR allowed it...but I would go for the 6.5T.
I am sure it would give many a combination a scare...I would also like to see the combination above with 80 SMK as I am not a fan of fat bullets.
Cheers
Rob A
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Paul Janzso
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What Cal, 308
Hi Patric
Paul again.
Well here is an honest opinion, and proven.
If you are after a "off the shelf rifle" get a TIKKA SUPER VARMINT rifle in 308 cal.
Take it straight to SARA at wingfield and get them to have there Gun Smith fit a 20 min. scope rail, preferably steel not alloy.
When it is ready, let me know and I will make up 20 "running in " loads and you can bring the rifle down to a range near me, Noarlunga and I will run the barrel in for you. Hopefully that is all it will take.
Then comes the issue of scope and mounts. I recomend the Leupold QR mounts. Scope , there is a million choices but look at what you want to do , look at other good shooters and see what ther are using.
Why a TIKKA you ask, here are my answers.
Quallity finish.
Superb trigger that is ajustable by the owner. No need to spend money on getting it tuned.
Firing pin hole does not need bushing as does with other brands when high presure loads are used.
Ajustable cheek piece for hight, so a 20min rail and scope mounts will not put the scope over the top, so to speek.
We have a member at Murray Bridge R C that uses a TIKKA Super Varmint in 308 and he is becoming very competitive against other F Class Standard shooters using Dale etc actions in Tracker style stocks.
I supplied him with a 20 min rail, he had it fitted, mounted a Leupold LR scope and uses this rifle out to 1,000 meters.
What more can I say, I use a TIKKA TACTICAL 223, 20min rail that I use in team shoots. Its competitive.
My 5c worth.
Cheers
Paul
PS Patric Murray Bridge R C has a "Service Rifle Shoot " on Saturday morning, all are welcome. Bring your 303's, mausers or hunting rifles.
PPS Alan, another rant by me about a particular Scandanavian rifle
Paul again.
Well here is an honest opinion, and proven.
If you are after a "off the shelf rifle" get a TIKKA SUPER VARMINT rifle in 308 cal.
Take it straight to SARA at wingfield and get them to have there Gun Smith fit a 20 min. scope rail, preferably steel not alloy.
When it is ready, let me know and I will make up 20 "running in " loads and you can bring the rifle down to a range near me, Noarlunga and I will run the barrel in for you. Hopefully that is all it will take.
Then comes the issue of scope and mounts. I recomend the Leupold QR mounts. Scope , there is a million choices but look at what you want to do , look at other good shooters and see what ther are using.
Why a TIKKA you ask, here are my answers.
Quallity finish.
Superb trigger that is ajustable by the owner. No need to spend money on getting it tuned.
Firing pin hole does not need bushing as does with other brands when high presure loads are used.
Ajustable cheek piece for hight, so a 20min rail and scope mounts will not put the scope over the top, so to speek.
We have a member at Murray Bridge R C that uses a TIKKA Super Varmint in 308 and he is becoming very competitive against other F Class Standard shooters using Dale etc actions in Tracker style stocks.
I supplied him with a 20 min rail, he had it fitted, mounted a Leupold LR scope and uses this rifle out to 1,000 meters.
What more can I say, I use a TIKKA TACTICAL 223, 20min rail that I use in team shoots. Its competitive.
My 5c worth.
Cheers
Paul
PS Patric Murray Bridge R C has a "Service Rifle Shoot " on Saturday morning, all are welcome. Bring your 303's, mausers or hunting rifles.
PPS Alan, another rant by me about a particular Scandanavian rifle
Time's a wasted wot's not spent shooti'n BARNARD 300WSM's
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