264 Winchester Magum

[Woody_rod]

Hey no problem. Name one person on the planet that can shoot at 1/8th minute? It is pure speculation that 1/8th MOA adjustments have any benefit at all. My wife's NXS has 1/4 MOA and is better than we will (and probably anyone else) ever shoot.

[Mark Hamersley]

Hi Wally

I like the fine adjustment capability of 1/8 min clicks for group centering and wouldn't go back to 1/4, but thats me. Of the scopes you mention, both have great optics. I use a Weaver T36 and would not want less magnification (more preferably), but again, thats me. See if you can find someone on the range with a big variable and sight on the target at different magnifications to see how you perceive the difference. If you are not sure or don't have the opportunity to try before you buy, you don't have to use a 12-42 it at its max, however if you buy a 6.5-20 you can't dial it up if you prefer more magnification. Just a thought.

best regards


Mark

[Lynn Otto]

I like the fine adjustment capability of 1/8 min clicks for group centering and wouldn't go back to 1/4, but thats me.
Mark

Yes, me too Mark, in fact Trev sold one of his NXS's and replaced it with a BR model even though he thinks the NXS has slightly better optics just to have the 1/8 min adjustment.

Rod, out of curiosity, have you done any amount of shooting with a 1/8 min scope? I've had the discussion about being able to read the wind that accurately many times and of course you can't, but as Mark said, it's about centering. If you have a group at 9 o'clock centre and a 1/4 min click puts you at 3 o'clock centre, wouldn't it be nice to have a 1/8 click to put it smack in the centre. Theoretically, a 1/4 should be fine but having shot extensively with both I won't trade my 1/8 min scope not even to have my preferred reticle. As the others said, that's just me and like many things in life, it's a matter of personal choice.

Lynn

[Woody_rod]

Well, I am a TR shooter specifically, but as a rifle manufacturer and tester, I do a lot of shooting with scopes. And no, we don't bother shooting anything but rimfires at 100 yards. I don't have "brand fixation", and will use anything once. We have BSA, Nikko, Nightforce, Weaver here to use. Whether they have one click adjustment or other, makes little difference to me.

If someone can read the wind at 1/8th minute, we should all give up now. But seriously, I believe what I see. I watch some of the best F Classers shoot - not yet seen any evidence of them being able to read the wind any better than a TR shooter (with their bigger centers). Some shoot 60's on the new target, but that is usually only at short range, on a good day. Longer ranges like 900 yards, it is more likely to be 58's. Otherwise, every competition in FS or FO would be dominated by people only winning by X counts - is this the case?? No.

What you are saying is that the person shooting 1/8th minute, will be able to shoot 60.10X (on ICFRA targets) often, with the right gear.

I think from another forum, that the major issue we have in TR, FS and FO is the lack of super accurate bullets, as would be used in BR.

So having the ability to sight a rifle to a certain part of MOA, will always be limited to the group size your rifle can shoot. My wifes rifle (on occasion) can shoot inside 1/3 MOA, and down to 1/4MOA which is pretty good for a FS rifle (flyers will be the shooter or bullets). How does 1/8th minute adjustment help when you know for a fact your rifle will never shoot better than 1/3MOA consistently? Using our rifle as an example here, not anyone elses.

So, if you have a group at 3 oclock on the V line, what size is this group, at say 900 yards? Will adjusting the group to the left make it any smaller in elevation, due to the fact that your rifle will only shoot a much larger group than 1/8th minute?

Lynn, I get what you mean, dont misunderstand. I just think it is getting people thinking that moving a generally large group by 1/8th MOA will make any statistically proven difference. I believe it never will.

[Lynn Otto]

To be honest Rod I think the older more experienced TR shooters can run rings around most F Class shooters and they mostly do that instinctively.

As to centering a group, well most of what we do has a large chunk of psychology in it and if moving my group nearer the centre makes me feel better about what I am doing then chances are I will do it better, works for me.

[AlanF]

Rod,

I agree it can be argued that ¼ min clicks are good enough for WINDAGE adjustment - I'm not sure because I virtually always aim off for windage. But what about elevation adjustment? Most shooters I know do fine adjustment as required for elevation - for various reasons I usually need to adjust elevation slightly during a shoot. And that is when I wish my Leupold scopes had 1/8ths. With the current 10 ring being a genuine ½ minute diameter at some ranges, and many rifles capable of ¼ min vertical accuracy, then ¼ min clicks are too coarse. I don't know a lot about aperture sights, but I'm sure TR shooters have click values less than half the diameter of their maximum score ring - let's see, the bull has a diameter of about 2 minutes - so half of that is 1 minute. Would you be happy with 1 minute elevation clicks in TR?

Alan

[RAVEN]

One eighth is the only way to go
Buy once cry once!

[AlanF]

One eighth is the only way to go
Buy once cry once!

I recently bought my second ¼ min click Leupold and haven't cried once, because I usually aim off vertically rather than click - I say usually because sometimes I forget to do it .

[RAVEN]

With the introduction of Super V 1/4 Click may be ok
I just need to make 2 clicks with my 1/8 instead of one
Can't do it the other way round

[Mark Hamersley]

G'day Rod

Say a well tuned rifle shoots on average 1/3 moa and the highest scoring ring is 1/2 moa (excluding conditions here). There is not much distance left before you drop a scoring ring even if it the group is centred, having the ability to move the group centre a fine amount to centre it suits some people, others don't worry about it and many more hold-off. Its an individual judgment, each to their own.

BTW I am not talking about wind reading to 1/8 or shooting groups at 1/8 either. Once you get to picking the wind movement it comes down to skill and not the size of your click

And Wally, please forgive us for taking your thread somewhat off-topic here, sometimes we feel we are back in the club house and get carried away! Hope you get your 264 on the range soon.


best regards



Mark

[Wally Plath]

No please,carry on! The more I read these comments the more I learn. So no one uses tactical scopes here?
I went to the Karrimine Range(just south of Innisfail) this morning, and after waiting over a hour the range officer still hadn't turned up.
So went home instead.
I cant beleive how very helpful everyone has been. I just hope my questions arent to stupid that's all.
But all criticism is good criticism!
Thanks
Wal

[Woody_rod]

Wally,

There is no such thing as a stupid question.....unless you ask the same thing 100 times and dont listen to the answer....LOL

You can see the technical stuff is really up to the individual's choices, budget and what they have been told to a degree.

Mark and Alan, I do agree about elevation. I use 1/4's on my TR, and have done for some time. I can hold a pretty good elevation at long range, so like to have the lesser adjustment range - 1/2 MOA is much too big.

I also hold off when shooting with a scope. It is a natural thing, probably more from doing more hunting with a scope, than target shooting. Something like this:

1. See fox, car pulls up
2. Judge distance (anywhere between 50 - 250 yards)
3. Load, aim, judge distance (using reticle width), judge wind
4. Aim over and to which ever side....
5. Shoot.

All this can take place in 10-20 seconds. If a crow, more like 3-5 seconds.

Good thing FS is not like that eh?? HAHA Though, watching Bill Hallam, seems to be in a hurry most times.

[Wally Plath]

Hi Wally
I started F-Class with a Sendaro 7mm Rem Mag factory rifle
The original 26 inch barrel had in excess of 4000 round through it when I rebarreled to Aus made barrel that only lasted 1000 rounds.
I now have a Krieger 30" I prefer cut rifling rather than button.
The best powder I have found is ADI 2217 it has the coolest burn rate of all powders this will prolong barrel life using a longer barrel you will get the full benefit of slow powder.
You don’t need to drive it flat out either 2800 - 3000 is plenty of velocity for F-Class.
I would just go use it do a barrel learning what you need to know after a season or two you will be better informed to make any calibre or cartridge changes.
Good shooting

Raven, how does your 7mm shoot out to 1000yards? From what I have read on the US forums the Sendaro are very nice. I am using ADI 2209 at present. Accuracy is very average. I need a real scope.
RB

[Wally Plath]

G'day Rod

Say a well tuned rifle shoots on average 1/3 moa and the highest scoring ring is 1/2 moa (excluding conditions here). There is not much distance left before you drop a scoring ring even if it the group is centred, having the ability to move the group centre a fine amount to centre it suits some people, others don't worry about it and many more hold-off. Its an individual judgment, each to their own.

BTW I am not talking about wind reading to 1/8 or shooting groups at 1/8 either. Once you get to picking the wind movement it comes down to skill and not the size of your click

And Wally, please forgive us for taking your thread somewhat off-topic here, sometimes we feel we are back in the club house and get carried away! Hope you get your 264 on the range soon.


best regards

Ok are you guys talking 100 yards 1/3 moa?



Mark

[Woody_rod]

Wally, to give you an idea, on a good day I will shoot my groups at 600 yards, otherwise, 300 yards. Makes it easy to see groups when you are further away.

1/3MOA group improvement in general is very hard to see clearly at 100 yards. The longer ranges also test your gear and you a bit better.

100 yards proves nothing really, other than your bullet can go that far!!

It is elevation in a group that will show at the longer ranges (or mid range as 600 yards is). When you get to 1000 yards/900 metres, elevation will certainly start to hurt you if anything is amiss with loads, bedding all that stuff.