Another option is to have 2 price structures for barrels. Maybe something like Shilen with its Match and Select Match. We pay more for the select match, being supposedly dimensionaly perfect, but if it is a dud ( or we can prove there is a manufacturing fault with it) we have more rights to a refund?
Wlilliada. Sounds like you know a bit about the Legalities involved. What sort of parameters could we define with the following cases. ( I have had at least 2 of each)
1. The barrel we order is a different diameter or twist to what we ordered. ie, we order a 9" twist, but get a 9.9". Or we order a heavy straight no taper barrel, but get a 1" straight no taper barrel. (This one is pretty clear cut)
2. A barrel FEELS like it is tight at first then gets loose, then tight again as you run a patch down it? Or ,when you spin it in a lathe, it has an obvious dogleg. (Both a bit hard for the average lead slinger to quantify).
3. The barrel is dimensionaly perfect, but just wont shoot. (Probably easier to achieve peace in the Middle East or work out exactly how the female brain works than finding resolution in this one).
Or is it a case of in small claims court, common sense and reason prevails?
Dud Match Barrels - What Recourse?
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Lynn Otto
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Both case 1 and 2 and fairly clear cut, if you can show that the goods are a) not what you ordered or b) do not meet the description as advertised/not fit for the intended purpose, then you should have no problems getting a replacement. Case 3 is a little more difficult because you would need to be able to show that it was not 'fit for purpose', you would need to be able to demonstrate that it in fact could not shoot to the level of expectation for its intended use. (And best of luck in figuring out how the female brain works, when men are capable of using the logic framework used by women then peace in the Middle East will be a walk in the park. 
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williada
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Hypothetically speaking, it would seem that in case one, that a condition of contract is breached in that the ordered specifications were not met. That is to say, that the barrel supplied is beyond a normal manufacturing tolerance of your order. If you ordered apples and got oranges then a condition is breached. This puts you in a much stronger bargaining position. Your first port of call is to discuss with the seller who may be the manufacturer, a solution to your problem. Complications with regard to jurisdiction exist if you have ordered from overseas. But if the seller is operating in Australia, then Australian laws apply.
Perhaps if you were being fobbed off with a litany of excuses, would you seek a legal solution? A solicitor may advise you of a range of remedies /damages for breach of condition and costs involved in taking the action in a clear cut bread and butter case. The court could order a specific performance to supply a replacement and award damages. This action would take place in a Magistrates court because of the relatively low costs involved. It is an adversarial system where copies of your order and other records such as diary entries of discussions, and receipts can be tended as evidence as well as proof that your goods do not meet specifications and associated expenses. Tape recordings are not admissible evidence in Australia.
Small Claims Tribunals tend to work through a common sense approach and are less formal. So the issue is about the buyer explaining the fault and listening to the seller’s reasons. The seller can lose considerable time by being requested to attend a hearing. So it may be more economical for the seller to meet with their obligations. The solicitor’s option is cheaper than you think. There are legal options for both breaches of contract and breach of warranty and so both actions can apply simultaneously.
It would appear that in hypothetical situation two, that a breach of warranty has occurred in terms of its merchantability. You don’t buy goods to lay them on a dunghill as one learned judge has said. So breach of warranty is more about the goods performance. The goods have to be fit for the purpose they were intended. If this bent barrel shot well, you would not have a case. In my experience, wall thickness is more of a culprit, but a bend with significant metal compression and tension can cause the barrel to walk on heat up. But on the balance of probabilities, a test used in civil cases, the barrel is unlikely to shoot well, you may have a case. You would most probably be entitled to a replacement. As to relying on the sellers skill and judgement for a separate warranty of “fitness for the purpose”, where the result would be more straightforward, you could argue that the seller has selected his stock with skill and judgement in such a specialized field.
In case three, another warranty situation at first glance, but a condition matter when considering relevant legislation as well. But it would be hard to prove a manufacturing fault without specialized tests.
On the news last night, I saw where the Gillard Government is going to enhance and consolidate the consumer legislation.
The best manufacturers should check bore dimensions with an air gauge for consistency over the length of the barrel. Others use a hollow rod with an internal tube so that two rotational indices pick up variations in twist rates throughout the length of the bore. This is more a lubrication problem in buttoned barrels which may be dimensionally correct with land/bore dimensions. Sometimes the pulling ram can stagger. Land heights tend to vary more in traditionally cut barrels. Lead slugging may highlight this. A bore scope can detect sloppy rounded lands induced by poor lapping. It’s accepted by the gunsmith trade that an inch is lopped off the barrel to account for the natural belling of the bore by the lapping process. The correct method is to use a lead slug and cut the barrel at the minimum bore dimension. It’s easy to pick a bore that is not concentric with the outside profile by spinning it in a lathe and looking at the wobble through the headstock. Similarly you can pick a bend by looking for a bent shadow cast in the bore by placing a matchstick at the muzzle while looking at the light. Barrels were traditionally straightened between “V” blocks using a mallet. This practice is not used for match barrels because a natural bend does not seem to affect performance. The best barrel blank is cut from the end of the billet, not in the guts where the forklift has lifted the steel. It can happen that barrels are chambered against the nap of the bore. This becomes a fouling issue. It can happen that when barrels are profiled, insufficient coolant and rake of the tool cause problems to numerous to mention that are concealed by the final linishing process. It can happen that heat treating processes are not adequate and can lead to dimensional change and steel weakness on profiling.
On the other hand, how do we know the gear has not been tampered with by the buyer? One area that can be overlooked is the thread lockup of the barrel tang and the action. Although the action faces appear to be square, the use of switch barrels may wear the threads, so the barrel becomes loosely fitted. Anyone fitting barrels will tell you that drawing up barrels despite reference marks and torque wrenches will want to keep drawing up with constant re-fitment. Another fault may lie in locking lug wear caused by constantly crush fitting ammunition. This also plays havoc on the pre-tension of barrel threads. I have also seen the best of actions hammered out of round with constant use and also bent by removing old barrels that have been “locktighted “ in. The possibilities are numerous.
We should reduce the number of problems through education. I know the executives of many large firms and government departments are professionally in-serviced as to their responsibilities under consumer legislation. So ignorance is not an excuse. However, those that sell barrels in Australia are usually small businesses, but common sense will tell you that insurance should be carried by the seller. Tax deductions can be claimed by the seller for such returns. Yes, they should be able to build costs into their margins if they do not already do so.
So what can you do to strengthen your bargaining position?
• Make the order in writing with duplicate.
• Put verbal orders in a diary and have them confirmed by the seller in writing.
• Spell out the particular use of the barrel in your order.
• Ask if the barrels supplied are used in this competition e.g. “F” Open.
• Spell out the dimensions you require e.g. bore and grove, re-enforce length and finish length (allowing for cut-off) or the barrel profile if advertised.
• Get a receipt and or keep bankcard records.
• Use a reputable gunsmith to fit your barrel.
• Follow the manufacturer’s break in procedures/ or ask for break in procedures.
Perhaps as a group we can investigate ways of having our associations develop guidelines of best practice for which sellers can seek endorsement and gain more custom. I don’t think you will ever obtain the failure rates for in warranty claims from manufacturers, but I would not swallow a 20% failure and price rise. As per batch failure, in my experience this was picked up by the metallurgy tests and after heat treatments. A match barrel maker uses certified steel and also checks that again. This is barrel blow-up territory and actions for negligence and not just contract and warranty. Barrels are usually inspected at each stage of manufacture i.e. drilling, reaming, profiling, buttoning/cut rifling, lapping and if chambered. Barrels which did not come up to scratch can be bored out to another calibre, so in reality few bad ones get through to the final consumer. Profiling induced problems have been reduced with the CNC machinery used today.
No wonder we should expect barrel to shoot under one minute of angle and nominally at 100 yards for test purposes. Having visited a commercial ammunition manufacturing facility where they conduct machine rest tests over 100 yards underground, their batches of ammunition were tested on somewhat shorter barrels and thinner profiles than used in match competition and with a high degree of accuracy. I cannot confirm, whether they are now using the same test match barrels I used around 2003 but I heard a rumor they could have. Of 13 new barrels I tested, only one of these barrels did not group under a minute of angle from the machine rest I used at 100 yards. But most could do it at 1000 yards with factory ammunition in the test conditions with ten shot groups.
Finally, referring to Warren Page back in 1973, “But a straight and uniform tube is vital, no doubt about it, if a ¼ minute performance is called for.” (The Accurate Rifle). Its piffle for sellers to suggest match barrels should not be expected to perform better than one minute of angle at a nominal 100 yards in this modern era.
David
Perhaps if you were being fobbed off with a litany of excuses, would you seek a legal solution? A solicitor may advise you of a range of remedies /damages for breach of condition and costs involved in taking the action in a clear cut bread and butter case. The court could order a specific performance to supply a replacement and award damages. This action would take place in a Magistrates court because of the relatively low costs involved. It is an adversarial system where copies of your order and other records such as diary entries of discussions, and receipts can be tended as evidence as well as proof that your goods do not meet specifications and associated expenses. Tape recordings are not admissible evidence in Australia.
Small Claims Tribunals tend to work through a common sense approach and are less formal. So the issue is about the buyer explaining the fault and listening to the seller’s reasons. The seller can lose considerable time by being requested to attend a hearing. So it may be more economical for the seller to meet with their obligations. The solicitor’s option is cheaper than you think. There are legal options for both breaches of contract and breach of warranty and so both actions can apply simultaneously.
It would appear that in hypothetical situation two, that a breach of warranty has occurred in terms of its merchantability. You don’t buy goods to lay them on a dunghill as one learned judge has said. So breach of warranty is more about the goods performance. The goods have to be fit for the purpose they were intended. If this bent barrel shot well, you would not have a case. In my experience, wall thickness is more of a culprit, but a bend with significant metal compression and tension can cause the barrel to walk on heat up. But on the balance of probabilities, a test used in civil cases, the barrel is unlikely to shoot well, you may have a case. You would most probably be entitled to a replacement. As to relying on the sellers skill and judgement for a separate warranty of “fitness for the purpose”, where the result would be more straightforward, you could argue that the seller has selected his stock with skill and judgement in such a specialized field.
In case three, another warranty situation at first glance, but a condition matter when considering relevant legislation as well. But it would be hard to prove a manufacturing fault without specialized tests.
On the news last night, I saw where the Gillard Government is going to enhance and consolidate the consumer legislation.
The best manufacturers should check bore dimensions with an air gauge for consistency over the length of the barrel. Others use a hollow rod with an internal tube so that two rotational indices pick up variations in twist rates throughout the length of the bore. This is more a lubrication problem in buttoned barrels which may be dimensionally correct with land/bore dimensions. Sometimes the pulling ram can stagger. Land heights tend to vary more in traditionally cut barrels. Lead slugging may highlight this. A bore scope can detect sloppy rounded lands induced by poor lapping. It’s accepted by the gunsmith trade that an inch is lopped off the barrel to account for the natural belling of the bore by the lapping process. The correct method is to use a lead slug and cut the barrel at the minimum bore dimension. It’s easy to pick a bore that is not concentric with the outside profile by spinning it in a lathe and looking at the wobble through the headstock. Similarly you can pick a bend by looking for a bent shadow cast in the bore by placing a matchstick at the muzzle while looking at the light. Barrels were traditionally straightened between “V” blocks using a mallet. This practice is not used for match barrels because a natural bend does not seem to affect performance. The best barrel blank is cut from the end of the billet, not in the guts where the forklift has lifted the steel. It can happen that barrels are chambered against the nap of the bore. This becomes a fouling issue. It can happen that when barrels are profiled, insufficient coolant and rake of the tool cause problems to numerous to mention that are concealed by the final linishing process. It can happen that heat treating processes are not adequate and can lead to dimensional change and steel weakness on profiling.
On the other hand, how do we know the gear has not been tampered with by the buyer? One area that can be overlooked is the thread lockup of the barrel tang and the action. Although the action faces appear to be square, the use of switch barrels may wear the threads, so the barrel becomes loosely fitted. Anyone fitting barrels will tell you that drawing up barrels despite reference marks and torque wrenches will want to keep drawing up with constant re-fitment. Another fault may lie in locking lug wear caused by constantly crush fitting ammunition. This also plays havoc on the pre-tension of barrel threads. I have also seen the best of actions hammered out of round with constant use and also bent by removing old barrels that have been “locktighted “ in. The possibilities are numerous.
We should reduce the number of problems through education. I know the executives of many large firms and government departments are professionally in-serviced as to their responsibilities under consumer legislation. So ignorance is not an excuse. However, those that sell barrels in Australia are usually small businesses, but common sense will tell you that insurance should be carried by the seller. Tax deductions can be claimed by the seller for such returns. Yes, they should be able to build costs into their margins if they do not already do so.
So what can you do to strengthen your bargaining position?
• Make the order in writing with duplicate.
• Put verbal orders in a diary and have them confirmed by the seller in writing.
• Spell out the particular use of the barrel in your order.
• Ask if the barrels supplied are used in this competition e.g. “F” Open.
• Spell out the dimensions you require e.g. bore and grove, re-enforce length and finish length (allowing for cut-off) or the barrel profile if advertised.
• Get a receipt and or keep bankcard records.
• Use a reputable gunsmith to fit your barrel.
• Follow the manufacturer’s break in procedures/ or ask for break in procedures.
Perhaps as a group we can investigate ways of having our associations develop guidelines of best practice for which sellers can seek endorsement and gain more custom. I don’t think you will ever obtain the failure rates for in warranty claims from manufacturers, but I would not swallow a 20% failure and price rise. As per batch failure, in my experience this was picked up by the metallurgy tests and after heat treatments. A match barrel maker uses certified steel and also checks that again. This is barrel blow-up territory and actions for negligence and not just contract and warranty. Barrels are usually inspected at each stage of manufacture i.e. drilling, reaming, profiling, buttoning/cut rifling, lapping and if chambered. Barrels which did not come up to scratch can be bored out to another calibre, so in reality few bad ones get through to the final consumer. Profiling induced problems have been reduced with the CNC machinery used today.
No wonder we should expect barrel to shoot under one minute of angle and nominally at 100 yards for test purposes. Having visited a commercial ammunition manufacturing facility where they conduct machine rest tests over 100 yards underground, their batches of ammunition were tested on somewhat shorter barrels and thinner profiles than used in match competition and with a high degree of accuracy. I cannot confirm, whether they are now using the same test match barrels I used around 2003 but I heard a rumor they could have. Of 13 new barrels I tested, only one of these barrels did not group under a minute of angle from the machine rest I used at 100 yards. But most could do it at 1000 yards with factory ammunition in the test conditions with ten shot groups.
Finally, referring to Warren Page back in 1973, “But a straight and uniform tube is vital, no doubt about it, if a ¼ minute performance is called for.” (The Accurate Rifle). Its piffle for sellers to suggest match barrels should not be expected to perform better than one minute of angle at a nominal 100 yards in this modern era.
David
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Barry Davies
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What is a "dud" barrel?
I guess if you asked that question of a TR shooter you would get a different answer to that of an F Class shooter--maybe.
An F Classer is not happy with a barrel that groups just slightly larger than the 6 ring, whereas a TR shooter would probably reckon it's a hummer.
The F classer is looking for a barrel that groups better than 3/4 MOA, so, just because it groups slightly larger than the 6 ring does not mean it is a dud.
We know that you cannot simply use the load that " mick " is using because " mick" is shooting more super V's than 6's--does'nt work that way. We know that you have to tune the load to the barrel--problem is that most would not know where to start.
We don't have a great selection of components to choose from so our chances of tuning a barrel from a "just acceptable " to a "hummer " is greatly reduced.
So, where and when do you draw the line and can positively say that you have a " dud " barrel--apart from all the obvious reasons.
I do not intend to go into the detail of tuning, I simply would make people aware that it's not as simple as stuffing a case to a level with a particular type of powder, seating a projectile so that the bolt can be closed easily,
and shooting the thing hoping that a sub 3/4 MOA group will result, in all probability it won't-- does'nt make it a dud though.
Just because "that " load worked in "that" barrel at X speed and Y seating depth does'nt mean all of that will work in another supposedly identical barrel, or any other barrel for that matter.
I'm no expert and make no claims as such but never seem to have any problems in ultimately getting a barrel to shoot--sure it might take a couple of hundred rounds--so what, thats part of tuning.
Many times I have heard it said ---" but it's a new barrel and I loaded the ammo the same as for the old( hummer ) one---first mistake, if that is accepted as gospel-- good starting point though.
If after having spent considerable time tuning a barrel by whatever methods you like best, and the end result is 3/4 MOA --you would have a difficult time convincing any higher authority that it is not acceptable--simply because " Micks" groups 1/2 MOA.
I would say that "Mick " has put more time into his tuning.
Barry
I guess if you asked that question of a TR shooter you would get a different answer to that of an F Class shooter--maybe.
An F Classer is not happy with a barrel that groups just slightly larger than the 6 ring, whereas a TR shooter would probably reckon it's a hummer.
The F classer is looking for a barrel that groups better than 3/4 MOA, so, just because it groups slightly larger than the 6 ring does not mean it is a dud.
We know that you cannot simply use the load that " mick " is using because " mick" is shooting more super V's than 6's--does'nt work that way. We know that you have to tune the load to the barrel--problem is that most would not know where to start.
We don't have a great selection of components to choose from so our chances of tuning a barrel from a "just acceptable " to a "hummer " is greatly reduced.
So, where and when do you draw the line and can positively say that you have a " dud " barrel--apart from all the obvious reasons.
I do not intend to go into the detail of tuning, I simply would make people aware that it's not as simple as stuffing a case to a level with a particular type of powder, seating a projectile so that the bolt can be closed easily,
and shooting the thing hoping that a sub 3/4 MOA group will result, in all probability it won't-- does'nt make it a dud though.
Just because "that " load worked in "that" barrel at X speed and Y seating depth does'nt mean all of that will work in another supposedly identical barrel, or any other barrel for that matter.
I'm no expert and make no claims as such but never seem to have any problems in ultimately getting a barrel to shoot--sure it might take a couple of hundred rounds--so what, thats part of tuning.
Many times I have heard it said ---" but it's a new barrel and I loaded the ammo the same as for the old( hummer ) one---first mistake, if that is accepted as gospel-- good starting point though.
If after having spent considerable time tuning a barrel by whatever methods you like best, and the end result is 3/4 MOA --you would have a difficult time convincing any higher authority that it is not acceptable--simply because " Micks" groups 1/2 MOA.
I would say that "Mick " has put more time into his tuning.
Barry
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AlanF
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Barry,
The general definition of a hummer barrel is one that is not only accurate, but is tolerant of a broad range of reloading components and settings, and is therefore easy to get going, and keep going. I tend to agree that almost any barrel can be tuned to high standard of accuracy if you have sufficient expertise, time and methods available. But there are limits to how much time and barrel life is reasonable to expend on tuning. So perhaps a dud can best be described as a barrel which requires an unreasonable amount of time and effort by a competent shooter to tune to a consistent competitive standard.
Regarding what is a competitive standard for a match barrel (marketed as suitable for F-Class), then in my opinion, the barrel itself should be able to group consistently well inside the 6 ring. Otherwise it leaves nothing for the multitude of other load and equipment related errors e.g. projectile/case/load uniformity, sight mechanicals, bedding and stock rigidity, etc.
Alan
The general definition of a hummer barrel is one that is not only accurate, but is tolerant of a broad range of reloading components and settings, and is therefore easy to get going, and keep going. I tend to agree that almost any barrel can be tuned to high standard of accuracy if you have sufficient expertise, time and methods available. But there are limits to how much time and barrel life is reasonable to expend on tuning. So perhaps a dud can best be described as a barrel which requires an unreasonable amount of time and effort by a competent shooter to tune to a consistent competitive standard.
Regarding what is a competitive standard for a match barrel (marketed as suitable for F-Class), then in my opinion, the barrel itself should be able to group consistently well inside the 6 ring. Otherwise it leaves nothing for the multitude of other load and equipment related errors e.g. projectile/case/load uniformity, sight mechanicals, bedding and stock rigidity, etc.
Alan
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Barry Davies
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Alan,
It's the " multitude of other load and equipment related errors " that make the barrel inaccurate in the first place, --all other obvious reasons taken into account.
My definition of accuracy is " the ability of a combination to consistently place shots within a defined area " This defined area being of course directly proportional to target size.
Providing a logical and defined systematic approach is made to " tuning " a barrel, the effort and number of shots is minimal.
The haphazard approach of " suck it and see " will ultimately lead to frustration with inconclusive results, which in turn lead to the " I've got a dud" mentality.
There are not many " hummer " barrels around so the chances that you are going to have to put in some time and effort are real.
Barry
It's the " multitude of other load and equipment related errors " that make the barrel inaccurate in the first place, --all other obvious reasons taken into account.
My definition of accuracy is " the ability of a combination to consistently place shots within a defined area " This defined area being of course directly proportional to target size.
Providing a logical and defined systematic approach is made to " tuning " a barrel, the effort and number of shots is minimal.
The haphazard approach of " suck it and see " will ultimately lead to frustration with inconclusive results, which in turn lead to the " I've got a dud" mentality.
There are not many " hummer " barrels around so the chances that you are going to have to put in some time and effort are real.
Barry
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Barry Davies
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G'day Rod,
Absolutely, yes, But how bad are they? Like I said, if it groups 3/4 MOA you would have a hard time convincing anybody it"s a bummer.
The 1 in a thousand barrels are few and far between.
Anybody that fires 2000 rds in development simply has not got a clue.
If a barrel is going to go it will show up in the first 50 or so rounds. Any barrel worth it's salt should be up and running in 150 rounds, providing always that it has been " run in " properly and subsequent load development has been systematic.
Unfortunately 150 rounds or so is a fair percentage of the life of some calibres-- thats the price you have to pay if you must shoot them.
I do not wish to get into a debate on targets, but with the advent of the super V we now have a 1/2 MOA scoring area and everyone wants it,which really means a combination that can group better than that ( dare I say 1/4 MOA) yes some will, but the majority will not.
Barry
Absolutely, yes, But how bad are they? Like I said, if it groups 3/4 MOA you would have a hard time convincing anybody it"s a bummer.
The 1 in a thousand barrels are few and far between.
Anybody that fires 2000 rds in development simply has not got a clue.
If a barrel is going to go it will show up in the first 50 or so rounds. Any barrel worth it's salt should be up and running in 150 rounds, providing always that it has been " run in " properly and subsequent load development has been systematic.
Unfortunately 150 rounds or so is a fair percentage of the life of some calibres-- thats the price you have to pay if you must shoot them.
I do not wish to get into a debate on targets, but with the advent of the super V we now have a 1/2 MOA scoring area and everyone wants it,which really means a combination that can group better than that ( dare I say 1/4 MOA) yes some will, but the majority will not.
Barry
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AlanF
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Barry Davies wrote:... if it groups 3/4 MOA you would have a hard time convincing anybody it"s a bummer...
Barry,
In good conditions at 300yds, a ¾ MOA barrel will not be competitive at Queens level, in F-Std or F-Open. The ICFRA 6 ring is not much bigger than ¾ MOA, and going by the number of 60s you see, many barrels must be ½MOA or better. Don't forget that human errors of holding sighting and wind-reading combined probably expands groups typically by ¼ to ½MOA. So to get a 60 at 300 the barrel needs to be very good.
Alan
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Barry Davies
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Alan,
You miss the meaning of what I said.
I agree that to be competitive you need at least a 1/2 MOA grouping rifle.
But you just cannot haphazardly load it and hope to achieve that---you have to work on it.
Human errors do not come into the equation at all.
This thread is about " dud " barrels and what constitutes same.
The point I am trying to make is that if you had a barrel that grouped 3/4 min and was not prepared to put some time into Tuning it, you would have little or no chance of claiming it is a " dud"
and in my experience a 3/4 MOA barrel has every chance of being Tuned to 1/2 moa and better---with a little effort.
Expectations to get a 1/2 or 1/4 moa grouping barrel without putting some effort into it are unreasonable expectations --otherwise there would not be so much discussion on the virtues or otherwise of load variations, seating depth variations etc.---It's all part of the game.
As an example I have just fitted a new barrel to Jenny's rifle --Ran it in and selected the load to give me the speed I wanted and with minimum ES. Shot it at 600 and it grouped about 1.25 moa--not good enough. Tuned it to shoot about 3/4 moa, then shot it at 900 and further tuned to better than 1/2 moa. The barrel has now fired 99 rounds. Careful tuning took it from a bummer to a very accurate rifle. First impressions were not good but you work on it.
Barry
You miss the meaning of what I said.
I agree that to be competitive you need at least a 1/2 MOA grouping rifle.
But you just cannot haphazardly load it and hope to achieve that---you have to work on it.
Human errors do not come into the equation at all.
This thread is about " dud " barrels and what constitutes same.
The point I am trying to make is that if you had a barrel that grouped 3/4 min and was not prepared to put some time into Tuning it, you would have little or no chance of claiming it is a " dud"
and in my experience a 3/4 MOA barrel has every chance of being Tuned to 1/2 moa and better---with a little effort.
Expectations to get a 1/2 or 1/4 moa grouping barrel without putting some effort into it are unreasonable expectations --otherwise there would not be so much discussion on the virtues or otherwise of load variations, seating depth variations etc.---It's all part of the game.
As an example I have just fitted a new barrel to Jenny's rifle --Ran it in and selected the load to give me the speed I wanted and with minimum ES. Shot it at 600 and it grouped about 1.25 moa--not good enough. Tuned it to shoot about 3/4 moa, then shot it at 900 and further tuned to better than 1/2 moa. The barrel has now fired 99 rounds. Careful tuning took it from a bummer to a very accurate rifle. First impressions were not good but you work on it.
Barry
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AlanF
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Barry,
I see what you mean. Many shooters, including myself, don't do enough testing. The most consistent top performers seem to put considerable emphasis on it, so I guess that speaks for itself. Many clubs, including ours, treat every Saturday shoot as a competition, and those who are testing different loads while they shoot are seen by some as not joining in the spirit of things. I think its a throw-back to the days prior to reloading being allowed. I'll be discussing with our members the possibility of having some Saturdays during the year as testing days, so there is no pressure to conform with the standard 2 x 10 shot shoot structure with handicap. Of course we can do testing at other times at Rosedale, but its not always easy to arrange.
On barrels Barry, I think as a very competent tester and tuner, you are the ideal person to ask this question : if you were given 10 match grade .308 barrels from various brands commonly used in Australia, how many would you expect to be capable (after a reasonable amount of testing/tuning) of consistently shooting 10 shots into ½ MOA (at 300yd) using allowed F-Std components?
Alan
I see what you mean. Many shooters, including myself, don't do enough testing. The most consistent top performers seem to put considerable emphasis on it, so I guess that speaks for itself. Many clubs, including ours, treat every Saturday shoot as a competition, and those who are testing different loads while they shoot are seen by some as not joining in the spirit of things. I think its a throw-back to the days prior to reloading being allowed. I'll be discussing with our members the possibility of having some Saturdays during the year as testing days, so there is no pressure to conform with the standard 2 x 10 shot shoot structure with handicap. Of course we can do testing at other times at Rosedale, but its not always easy to arrange.
On barrels Barry, I think as a very competent tester and tuner, you are the ideal person to ask this question : if you were given 10 match grade .308 barrels from various brands commonly used in Australia, how many would you expect to be capable (after a reasonable amount of testing/tuning) of consistently shooting 10 shots into ½ MOA (at 300yd) using allowed F-Std components?
Alan
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M12LRPV
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Alan you've touched on one of the big issues with determining an accurate load and thus determining full barrel potential.
The inability to get the suitable range time for load development.
Most ranges or range programs do not cater for it and you're inevitably left trying to do it within the bounds of a regular shoot and copping a lot of criticism for it along the way.
The inability to get the suitable range time for load development.
Most ranges or range programs do not cater for it and you're inevitably left trying to do it within the bounds of a regular shoot and copping a lot of criticism for it along the way.
AlanF wrote:Barry,
I see what you mean. Many shooters, including myself, don't do enough testing. The most consistent top performers seem to put considerable emphasis on it, so I guess that speaks for itself. Many clubs, including ours, treat every Saturday shoot as a competition, and those who are testing different loads while they shoot are seen by some as not joining in the spirit of things.
Alan
I guess you have to decide which is more important, Queens and OPM's or the Club championship !! I know which way I'd go.
Matt P
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Lynn Otto
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I'm guessing which way Matt would go and I'm with him. I suppose we are very fortunate with our access to a range at times that suit us, we almost never do our load testing on a Saturday shoot...that is practice day. We do our load development on a different day and usually very early, when the conditions are good and our stop start activity isn't going to inconvenience anyone else. The same with running in a barrel, both are slow drawn out activities, with load development needing to move to longer and longer ranges to check accuracy and get appropriate scope setting for the load.
This time and effort really are necessary to get the best from any barrel.
This time and effort really are necessary to get the best from any barrel.
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Barry Davies
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Hi Alan.
On the question of the 10 match grade barrels---- assuming all to be from reputable barrel makers and within the known defined dimensions that produce accuracy, with twists to suit the projectiles to be used, and of a stiffness factor to capably shoot less than 1/2 moa groups, in addition to being correctly machined---
The answer is 10.
Lynn has got it right.
I can appreciate the problems people have in trying to achieve an accurate rifle and partake of club activities at the same time. Best is to do all of this at some other time.
Once you have determined the basics of what makes an accurate rifle ( and that can take considerable time and effort ) subsequent barrels and the tuning thereof becomes a relatively simple exercise.
I tune Jenny's barrel while she is shooting it --making the necessary adjustments along the way--usually 15 shots is sufficient. This of course is after having found the load I want---to give me the speed I want at the lowest figure of ES that I can get under 15 fps.
If after all of this and after sufficient rounds to properly wear in, I can still only achieve greater than 1.5 moa I would have to say that maybe I have got a dud--- but have'nt as yet.
Getting back to the original question of what Recourse with a dud barrel--
Firstly one has to set some standards. It's easy enough to do that, but how do you prove that the barrel is unacceptable when there are so many
variables??
Not easy, and really needs to be discussed with the barrel makers.
Barry
On the question of the 10 match grade barrels---- assuming all to be from reputable barrel makers and within the known defined dimensions that produce accuracy, with twists to suit the projectiles to be used, and of a stiffness factor to capably shoot less than 1/2 moa groups, in addition to being correctly machined---
The answer is 10.
Lynn has got it right.
I can appreciate the problems people have in trying to achieve an accurate rifle and partake of club activities at the same time. Best is to do all of this at some other time.
Once you have determined the basics of what makes an accurate rifle ( and that can take considerable time and effort ) subsequent barrels and the tuning thereof becomes a relatively simple exercise.
I tune Jenny's barrel while she is shooting it --making the necessary adjustments along the way--usually 15 shots is sufficient. This of course is after having found the load I want---to give me the speed I want at the lowest figure of ES that I can get under 15 fps.
If after all of this and after sufficient rounds to properly wear in, I can still only achieve greater than 1.5 moa I would have to say that maybe I have got a dud--- but have'nt as yet.
Getting back to the original question of what Recourse with a dud barrel--
Firstly one has to set some standards. It's easy enough to do that, but how do you prove that the barrel is unacceptable when there are so many
variables??
Not easy, and really needs to be discussed with the barrel makers.
Barry
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