Dave,
you are exactly right on the money.
John
why are the brits
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Cameron Mc
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AlanF
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Dave,
You've summed it up pretty well. F-Class teams is mostly about coaches and elevation accuracy. In TR its similar, but the shooter skills play a bigger part in the accuracy, so team selection has to reflect that. Getting the best coaches for the FCWC is not going to be easy. Being a good wind reader for individual shooting helps, but there are other very important attributes e.g. temperament and interpersonal skills. And you need to find someone who is prepared to travel, but not shoot in the main event. We should be prepared to look to the TR ranks for a coach - but they would need to develop different methods for F-Class, and practice, practice, practice.
Alan
You've summed it up pretty well. F-Class teams is mostly about coaches and elevation accuracy. In TR its similar, but the shooter skills play a bigger part in the accuracy, so team selection has to reflect that. Getting the best coaches for the FCWC is not going to be easy. Being a good wind reader for individual shooting helps, but there are other very important attributes e.g. temperament and interpersonal skills. And you need to find someone who is prepared to travel, but not shoot in the main event. We should be prepared to look to the TR ranks for a coach - but they would need to develop different methods for F-Class, and practice, practice, practice.
Alan
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Woody_rod
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Good post Dave.
Some questions that always went through my mind:
Why are people considered for teams based on individual performance? Individual and team performances have very little in common. This is certainly the case at state level.
Why do we not practice team shooting more?
Why do we keep selecting the same people in teams, even though they don't perform when it matters?
Why do we not have a clean sweep and rebuild the team from new blood?
Some questions that always went through my mind:
Why are people considered for teams based on individual performance? Individual and team performances have very little in common. This is certainly the case at state level.
Why do we not practice team shooting more?
Why do we keep selecting the same people in teams, even though they don't perform when it matters?
Why do we not have a clean sweep and rebuild the team from new blood?
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bruce moulds
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when approached, committee members of our club have looked kindly upon running some bisley style shoots on non championship days.
in the meantime i intend to not wait out conditions any more, preferring to feel the pain and adjust in an effort to gain, at ordinary shoots.
bruce.
in the meantime i intend to not wait out conditions any more, preferring to feel the pain and adjust in an effort to gain, at ordinary shoots.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM
I agree with James in this regard -One thing you know for sure is the best individuals are not only good wind readers but they have to have accurate rifles and they have to be able to hold a good shot. Sure they might not need their wind reading skills for team shooting but they certainly qualify for the other skills. There just may be others too???
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Woody_rod
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Triplejim wrote:Woody_rod wrote:Why are people considered for teams based on individual performance? Individual and team performances have very little in common.
Disagree, the perfect team is made up of of the best individuals moulded into a team by a strong Captain. James
I disagree. If we had the best people, we would not have finished 4th. The score never lies.
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Woody_rod
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DaveMc wrote:I agree with James in this regard -One thing you know for sure is the best individuals are not only good wind readers but they have to have accurate rifles and they have to be able to hold a good shot. Sure they might not need their wind reading skills for team shooting but they certainly qualify for the other skills. There just may be others too???
A team shooter needs to do the following:
Have a reliable rifle that shoots better than 1/2MOA.
Load the rifle on the mound
Hold good elevation
Shoot when the coach says so
Reload
What else is there to it??
Being a good individual shooter has very little to do with team shooting needs. This is a consistent mistake being made in AU. As long as we keep repeating this mistake, we wont be winning.
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Woody_rod
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There is no shame in coming fourth. The talent the other teams brought to the competition was outstanding.
I personally think the pommies came with rifles and ammo that could shoot better than half moa. They came with outstanding coaches. They came with great captains and tacticians. They trained hard and were very prepared. Just as in the last FCWC.
The point I was tryning to make was the top level shooters have to have the skills you outline above or they wouldn't be at the top. There are also others around that do too.
I personally think the pommies came with rifles and ammo that could shoot better than half moa. They came with outstanding coaches. They came with great captains and tacticians. They trained hard and were very prepared. Just as in the last FCWC.
The point I was tryning to make was the top level shooters have to have the skills you outline above or they wouldn't be at the top. There are also others around that do too.
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bartman007
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Team shooting
Having been involved in district shooting for a long time and a little State team development, I see that there are a number of factors that affect the overall outcome.
Shooter ability
Shooter equipment
Shooter / Coach relationship
Coach ability
Captain ability - to organise and control the team
I don't believe that we do enough trialling of individuals prior to team selection. From my experience of the VRA selection process back in the 90's, by having a number of shoots (8+) over a 1 to 2 year period gave the selectors the ability to rate the above criteria for each element of the team.
There are a number of reasons a team fails to perform at its best, and part of it comes down to how the Captain controls the team.
The Captain needs to set the rules clearly in regard to what the shooters will use at the competition. We can't have the shooter saying at the last minute, I think I'll use my 8mm cannon here, when they have been using a 284W for the trial's.
If you look at the shooters who are at the top of our sport, you don't see them changing their technique or equipment every 5 minutes, they have a system that works consistently, and that is why they are always in the top few.
We need to have more trials, and written note must be taken on each participants equipment. Then at selection time, all factors can be weighed up, and the appropriate individuals selected.
At present our movement has too many variables in play, which makes team selection a little complicated. Team members seem to be made up of shooters with 6mm along with variants, 6.5mm along with variants, 7mm along with variants, and 30 cal with its variants.
How can a coach reliably make wind changes when shooter 1 has a 6mm setup, then shooter 2 has a 7mm WSM. This is where the rules need to be set early in the piece. If you want to be in the team, you need to be using a: xxxxxxx
While this will cut down the number of applicants, guess what, we will be cutting out some of the weaknesses in our selection process. And it will strengthen the team as a whole. The coach will have a CONSISTENT approach to wind reading, and in the event of equipment malfuntion, there should be other equivalent equipment available within the team to overcome that fault.
+1 for Jame's comment about team selection
That's my two bob's worth!
Shooter ability
Shooter equipment
Shooter / Coach relationship
Coach ability
Captain ability - to organise and control the team
I don't believe that we do enough trialling of individuals prior to team selection. From my experience of the VRA selection process back in the 90's, by having a number of shoots (8+) over a 1 to 2 year period gave the selectors the ability to rate the above criteria for each element of the team.
There are a number of reasons a team fails to perform at its best, and part of it comes down to how the Captain controls the team.
The Captain needs to set the rules clearly in regard to what the shooters will use at the competition. We can't have the shooter saying at the last minute, I think I'll use my 8mm cannon here, when they have been using a 284W for the trial's.
If you look at the shooters who are at the top of our sport, you don't see them changing their technique or equipment every 5 minutes, they have a system that works consistently, and that is why they are always in the top few.
We need to have more trials, and written note must be taken on each participants equipment. Then at selection time, all factors can be weighed up, and the appropriate individuals selected.
At present our movement has too many variables in play, which makes team selection a little complicated. Team members seem to be made up of shooters with 6mm along with variants, 6.5mm along with variants, 7mm along with variants, and 30 cal with its variants.
How can a coach reliably make wind changes when shooter 1 has a 6mm setup, then shooter 2 has a 7mm WSM. This is where the rules need to be set early in the piece. If you want to be in the team, you need to be using a: xxxxxxx
While this will cut down the number of applicants, guess what, we will be cutting out some of the weaknesses in our selection process. And it will strengthen the team as a whole. The coach will have a CONSISTENT approach to wind reading, and in the event of equipment malfuntion, there should be other equivalent equipment available within the team to overcome that fault.
+1 for Jame's comment about team selection
That's my two bob's worth!
Re: Team shooting
bartman007 wrote:If you look at the shooters who are at the top of our sport, you don't see them changing their technique or equipment every 5 minutes, they have a system that works consistently, and that is why they are always in the top few.
Apart from Rod Davies - Not unheard of for him to switch cals for every range. But he is a freak!
Sounds like all good logic to me.
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RDavies
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Re: Team shooting
[/quote]
Apart from Rod Davies - Not unheard of for him to switch cals for every range. But he is a freak!
.[/quote]
Correction, I will try a few different barrels etc during lead up, to see what is working well in local conditions, but during the main event, usualy just 2 barrels.
The equipment selection for F std and Fullbore is fairly simple, just as long as you load you 155s to somewhere around 3000fps. The NSW F std team has just had one of their regular State Team practice weekends to get them in tune with the coach etc, and it seems like other states do the same, just like in full bore.
For Open class, equipment selection will be slightly harder, something like, use what ever you want to get 175-180gn 7mm bullets to either 2830 fps or 2950 fps, and we choose what we use to get it there, simple. If we go on a team shoot over seas, it will most likely be 800,900,1000yds, and if the top shooters arent already using a 7mm for the longs, they likely will be soon.
I would definitely welcome a top F/std or TR shooter as a wind coach. He would have most likely been in a few dozen teams shoots before and know how to get a team working. He might not be familiar with 7mm cartridges but after a look at ballistics charts and a few practice sessions, maybe a few behind the butt himself he will be on track.
Apart from Rod Davies - Not unheard of for him to switch cals for every range. But he is a freak!
.[/quote]
Correction, I will try a few different barrels etc during lead up, to see what is working well in local conditions, but during the main event, usualy just 2 barrels.
The equipment selection for F std and Fullbore is fairly simple, just as long as you load you 155s to somewhere around 3000fps. The NSW F std team has just had one of their regular State Team practice weekends to get them in tune with the coach etc, and it seems like other states do the same, just like in full bore.
For Open class, equipment selection will be slightly harder, something like, use what ever you want to get 175-180gn 7mm bullets to either 2830 fps or 2950 fps, and we choose what we use to get it there, simple. If we go on a team shoot over seas, it will most likely be 800,900,1000yds, and if the top shooters arent already using a 7mm for the longs, they likely will be soon.
I would definitely welcome a top F/std or TR shooter as a wind coach. He would have most likely been in a few dozen teams shoots before and know how to get a team working. He might not be familiar with 7mm cartridges but after a look at ballistics charts and a few practice sessions, maybe a few behind the butt himself he will be on track.
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