The death of a good barrel from Bartlein point of view
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AlanF
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Well done Peter and Dave! Looks like we need to treat abrasives with a lot of respect. I will continue to use them but only at the throat end when it becomes rough, and with jag/patch, not brush. I only use bronze brushes with powder solvents, and nylon brushes with Sweets. Using that strategy with my Bartlein it looks like it will have an accuracy life past 2000 rounds.
A fantastic experiment Dave and Peter, with great results from it.
Makes one really respect the power of both bronze brushes and abrasive pastes on their own. Obviously using the two together is a bit overboard and combine that with a rod that isnt rotating freely and you have a real potential problem if not recognised early.
I would be intrigued to see an experiment with a nylon brush and abrasive paste on a rod that was rotating freely to see if that caused damage or undesired wear on a barrel or if the rod not spinning is the main culprit in the scenario.
Makes one really respect the power of both bronze brushes and abrasive pastes on their own. Obviously using the two together is a bit overboard and combine that with a rod that isnt rotating freely and you have a real potential problem if not recognised early.
I would be intrigued to see an experiment with a nylon brush and abrasive paste on a rod that was rotating freely to see if that caused damage or undesired wear on a barrel or if the rod not spinning is the main culprit in the scenario.
A couple of things to remember in Tony's original thread.
1) He was using a quality Dewey coated cleaning rod
2) There was no obvious gouging in the conventional grooved Maddco's (although there may be general wear.)
When we first obtained the barrel stub from Tony and pushed a bronze brush through it there was basically no detectable force from the rifling trying to turn the brush. the brush followed the deep gouges or tracks and just went straight down the barrel stub. Once the gouges start then there is very little resistance to turn the brush.
It is possible the angled rifling on the 5R may allow bristles to ride up and over the canted lands more easily compared to conventional rifling and once the tracks start to form they follow the path of least resistance and just keep tracking there over and over. There maybe nothing obviously wrong with Tony's cleaning rod (should be checked now though!) particular care should be taken with slanted/canted lands patterns. BUT we also did generate similar gouges in conventional rifling as well. The big lesson here is pay particular attention to your cleaning rod spinning - each and every time you clean - I will be watching more closely from here on in.
Tony followed the Bore Polish's cleaning instructions to a "t". we did note that he "BORE POLISH" did wear the brush down rather quickly and went from a tight fitting brush to a loose one in a surprisingly small number of strokes.
1) He was using a quality Dewey coated cleaning rod
2) There was no obvious gouging in the conventional grooved Maddco's (although there may be general wear.)
When we first obtained the barrel stub from Tony and pushed a bronze brush through it there was basically no detectable force from the rifling trying to turn the brush. the brush followed the deep gouges or tracks and just went straight down the barrel stub. Once the gouges start then there is very little resistance to turn the brush.
It is possible the angled rifling on the 5R may allow bristles to ride up and over the canted lands more easily compared to conventional rifling and once the tracks start to form they follow the path of least resistance and just keep tracking there over and over. There maybe nothing obviously wrong with Tony's cleaning rod (should be checked now though!) particular care should be taken with slanted/canted lands patterns. BUT we also did generate similar gouges in conventional rifling as well. The big lesson here is pay particular attention to your cleaning rod spinning - each and every time you clean - I will be watching more closely from here on in.
Tony followed the Bore Polish's cleaning instructions to a "t". we did note that he "BORE POLISH" did wear the brush down rather quickly and went from a tight fitting brush to a loose one in a surprisingly small number of strokes.
Last edited by DaveMc on Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Frank Green
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I use mostly Dewey rods and have a Bore Tech also and those two are my favorites.
DaveMc is correct and it's common thing for a person that gets a 5R style rifled barrel especially the first time. Sometimes they notice the cleaning rod handle is rotating with the twist of the rifling and sometimes it doesn't or it skips. This is because of the gentler angle on the sides of the lands don't bite/drive the patch/brush like conventional rifling does. This also tells me that you would be using the wrong size brush (I almost never use a brush myself) or that you have the wrong size jag tip in conjunction with not using the correct size cleaning patch.
If your cleaning stuff is set up correctly my handle rotates just fine with the 5R rifled barrels.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
DaveMc is correct and it's common thing for a person that gets a 5R style rifled barrel especially the first time. Sometimes they notice the cleaning rod handle is rotating with the twist of the rifling and sometimes it doesn't or it skips. This is because of the gentler angle on the sides of the lands don't bite/drive the patch/brush like conventional rifling does. This also tells me that you would be using the wrong size brush (I almost never use a brush myself) or that you have the wrong size jag tip in conjunction with not using the correct size cleaning patch.
If your cleaning stuff is set up correctly my handle rotates just fine with the 5R rifled barrels.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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Craig McGowan
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Craig McGowan
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Server is back online. Sorry for the delay in Transmission.
http://www.7mm.com.au/death-barrel/
Regards
Craig McGowan
7mm.com.au
http://www.7mm.com.au/death-barrel/
Regards
Craig McGowan
7mm.com.au
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Tim N
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Dave and Peter,
Thanks for all the work you put into this and freely gave out the results!
This will no doubt save some misery and money for those who read it.
The rest of us had theories which could be argued till the cows come home but you two did something about it
Thanks for all the work you put into this and freely gave out the results!
This will no doubt save some misery and money for those who read it.
The rest of us had theories which could be argued till the cows come home but you two did something about it
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC
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Razer
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Fantastic investigation and conclusion, congratulations and full marks for persevering. I have one Pacnor Polygonal barrel and it seems that I will probably need to watch this type of rifling also??????
Quote BATattack: What is the best brushless bore cleaner?!
"Milfoam".
I had a great Truflite barrel fitted in 2006, shot brilliantly, 10 shots water lined a thousand yard target for a straight 60.
At 750 rounds it went off song, so, tried every thing available right through to the bore paste.
Nothing showed any colour.
Eventually was put onto Milfoam, put some in the barrel and left 24 hours. Again nothing.
As I was not prepared to give up on this barrel, I repeated the process for another 6 days. On the seventh application the cleaning patch came out with a thick streak of carbon which must have been tightly bound in the bottom corner of one land.
Didn't have a bore scope so I had to keep going until something showed up.
Barrel was back to its best.
I put this particular problem to the load I was using, 2206H with PMC Mag primers. Often wondered if certain powder/primer combinations can have a reaction that affects the way carbon forms/attaches to the bore.
For every day use I stick with Hoppes and a bore quide with an 0 ring seal. Bronze brush dipped in small jar of Hoppes, straight into bore guide, 6 scrubs of barrel clearing both ends, repeat, leave for an hour. Patch out with wet patch and then patch until clean. Sweets oil on nylon brush then and rifle stored.
Most times mine and my sons barrels do not get cleaned for 3 or 4 days but they always come clean. Sons barrel now over 7500 rounds and he still shoots centres. Never been re-chambered or re-crowned, but, it is a 16 flute Denis Tobler barrel and I have never felt this barrel hot!!!!!!
Another question. I used to do a lot of hunting and rifles would often get left for several days before cleaning. Carbon does not expand/contract???
Could leaving a barrel until cold result in the differing expansion rates which cause the carbon to actually crack/fracture make it easier for the cleaning agent to get under it?
Just asking.
Quote BATattack: What is the best brushless bore cleaner?!
"Milfoam".
I had a great Truflite barrel fitted in 2006, shot brilliantly, 10 shots water lined a thousand yard target for a straight 60.
At 750 rounds it went off song, so, tried every thing available right through to the bore paste.
Nothing showed any colour.
Eventually was put onto Milfoam, put some in the barrel and left 24 hours. Again nothing.
As I was not prepared to give up on this barrel, I repeated the process for another 6 days. On the seventh application the cleaning patch came out with a thick streak of carbon which must have been tightly bound in the bottom corner of one land.
Didn't have a bore scope so I had to keep going until something showed up.
Barrel was back to its best.
I put this particular problem to the load I was using, 2206H with PMC Mag primers. Often wondered if certain powder/primer combinations can have a reaction that affects the way carbon forms/attaches to the bore.
For every day use I stick with Hoppes and a bore quide with an 0 ring seal. Bronze brush dipped in small jar of Hoppes, straight into bore guide, 6 scrubs of barrel clearing both ends, repeat, leave for an hour. Patch out with wet patch and then patch until clean. Sweets oil on nylon brush then and rifle stored.
Most times mine and my sons barrels do not get cleaned for 3 or 4 days but they always come clean. Sons barrel now over 7500 rounds and he still shoots centres. Never been re-chambered or re-crowned, but, it is a 16 flute Denis Tobler barrel and I have never felt this barrel hot!!!!!!
Another question. I used to do a lot of hunting and rifles would often get left for several days before cleaning. Carbon does not expand/contract???
Could leaving a barrel until cold result in the differing expansion rates which cause the carbon to actually crack/fracture make it easier for the cleaning agent to get under it?
Just asking.
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ecomeat
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jasmay wrote:Great article, did anyone contact the manufacturer of the cleaning product with the issues/findings?
Yes, i did so yesterday, Jason. I gave them a brief summary, and requested that they read the full Report on 7mm.com.au and then use the links provided to the two threads .
I would expect that they may take a couple of days to consider a response.
Craig has also passed the article on to accurate shooter.com and we hope they will publish it.
The critical thing here is that literally any abrasive paste or polish is almost guaranteed to have the same final result on any canted land barrel if used on a bronze brush as part of a regular cleaning routine.
Peter and Dave have done the worldwide shooting scene a big favor, I think.
Tony
Extreme accuracy and precision shooting at long range can be a very addictive pastime.
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