OzFclass

Like Cameron, I love this topic and agree some of this should remain behind closed doors but I also feel the bulk could (and should) be talked about at a nationwide level, out in the open. We should all be openly discussing what makes good team players and encouraging the right paths/attitudes as early in the shooting career as possible. We tend to start out as individuals in this sport and sometimes "individual" habits are hard to break. This stands for Shooters, Managers, Coaches and Captains alike.

For those that haven't got it already, I recommend getting your hands on Nancy Tompkins book. Her chapters on teams are well worth the read. She covers a basic framework on characters of a good team shooter, a good team coach and a good captain. We all need to look inwardly at ourselves and ask the deep questions ("IS THIS ACTION/REACTION IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE TEAM - NOT MYSELF?").

A good team player is the first one to put up their hand and admit their gear (or themselves) aren't quite running well enough to be up on the line - they go where their captain asks them to go without question or complaining. Same with the coaching crew. A coach needs to know when to step aside/or alternatively know when to suck up personal pride and carry on. As a coach you cannot hide from bad conditions. You are on the mound making wind calls all day, often for many days. You cannot hide from bad conditions. Sooner or later you have to work through them and often cop a flogging. As an individual you can be lucky enough to get through a shoot relatively unscathed, or alternatively when you do cop a flogging just convince yourself that the other bloke got a lucky run. As a coach you do not have these luxuries. It is a humbling and punishing experience but extremely rewarding at the same time.

Anyone considering entering any team needs to psychologically prepare themselves for being left out of the team on the line and fulfilling a role as scorer, plotter or any other such role as asked by their Captain. They need to attack this duty with the same enthusiasm they would for firing on the line and as hard as it is to understand these jobs are just as important if not more so than laying down and firing or coaching.

Unfortunately the National Teams events take on a different format to the world championships with single targets and smaller numbers of shooters. Communication systems etc are a little less critical with single coaches and less shooters. Ideally I would love to see the development of new ideas for the larger teams shoots through the approach of different states. This could be the ideal breeding ground for innovation. With increasing participation I would hope we can start to push for multiple coach teams events to hone our communication skills and development of innovative and new ideas.

Finally in this little ramble. We set a high bar in Raton for teamwork. We had a great team of "team" shooters, great captaining and a coaching system that allowed for instant communication between coaches - We all worked well together as a team. Comments from other nations captains and coaches were one of the highlights for me e.g. From a very experienced coach "We have never seen such a professional approach to teamwork in any from of shooting".

There were definitely areas we could improve. To win it again we will have to raise the bar. It is one of my greatest wishes from the outcome of our last efforts that the next team builds upon what we did, improves on the areas we need to and takes it to another level.

Quite a few have touched on what makes a great team. Some of the things I see as important to building a team are:

1. Definition of team member responsibilities: Captain / Coach / Shooter
e.g.
Shooter:
i. Provide equipment that meets the team specifications (e.g. 6mm plus 7mm rifles with scope 1/8 MOA turrets)
ii. Ensure equipment is tuned to shoot around .5 MOA or better
iii. Know how their rifle shoots when clean
iv. Provide rests with feet suitible for the mounds that will be competed on
v. Have developed methods and equipment to cope with Rain / Sun / Mirage / etc
vi. Have a healthy eating/drinking regime to ensure best physical performance during the day
vii. Practise mental execises leading up to the day of competition
viii. Determine a cleaning regime for use during the competition, knowing the ranges that will be shot
ix. Have come ups for each range in both metric and imperial
x. Have accurate wind and elevation zero's (will help in getting adjusted to the competition venue during practise session)
xi. Have extra ammo that has more or less powder in it, to accomodate for the temperature of the day

2. Practising as a team
i. Have the shooters shoot in the order that they will compete in.
ii. Shoot the full program as it would be on the day.
iii. Swap shooter roles around, to have them plot and score.

Most of all: HAVE FUN and enjoy the wins and losses.

Shooting club pennant is extremely satisfying for me, as we have shooters of all abilities and it is about getting the best score out of your club members. It is great to get them top scores, as they smile and show their appreciation.

David,
I apologise if this is off topic....but it is sort of connected.
Hopefully most agree that shooting under good wind coaches can also be a huge learning experience for the shooter. I may well be doing this wrong, as i have to confess that whilst the Wind Coach is king, & there is no argument there, i find myself also making my own mental calculations "on the run". There is zero conflict with my Coaches instruction, but I am guilty of also using it as a huge learning platform.
Having all of your senses (hopefully) attuned to the myriad of indicators in front of you, quickly making your own mental calculation......then being able to compare YOUR call to that of the Coach, is a wonderful thing for me, the shooter. Of course, I ONLY follow the Coaches call, as mine is nothing more than a quick calculation for my own mental library.
Being able to listen and be guided on "the wind" on every single shot by Andrew Pearce and Jenni Hausler was a wind coaching lesson for me, that money probably couldn't buy. No insult intended, but they have probably got more years of wind reading experience between them , than I am years old I just turned 60. I assume that many other States also had Coaches with many, many years of experience.
Is the shooter allowed to "calculate" as they go, and just for comparisons the way I do ? Or is the shooter specifically supposed to NOT think ......just pull a good shot when told ?

Speaking of "Learning".......when the Teams was over in Tasmania, Tim Nugent, myself and a few others were in the bar (it was the only time we went anywhere near that house, of course ) and Tim asked the question : "If Marty Lobert , (who had recently won the Individual Silver Medal at the FCWC) held a half hour, or one hour Wind READING Clinic....who would pay to go ?"
We were unanimous in our vote , that all would go.....would in fact walk on broken glass to get there.... And all would be prepared to pay $50 or so for the privelege.
Opportunity knocks.....the average F Class marksman is keen to learn.

Would separate "development" squads be out of the question? I know we need members to interact to become an effective team, but I think it's unrealistic to believe this needs to happen all the time.

Consider the two alternative pathways used for our target shooting sports and team member experience. On one hand we have some of the southern states with school based shooting teams inducing experience from their teenage years. From this, U/25's team representative opportunities are presented nationally. The alternative to this being a relatively talented shooter entering the sport after family life and work have settled, with a disposable income obviously. Common to both, is this theme of crashing through your first representative team event after you've been selected from a relatively large shooter based.

There are the inherent technique, equipment and even etiquette issues, which all new comers have to make the jump from club/district shooting to State Association or NRAA level. Although we like to think that we can draw on the experience of team members with a few events under their belts, selection trials, training days and the inevitable event are less than ideal for those experienced team members themselves. Nor are experienced team members necessarily the best suited to developing other team members, while trying to put on their best performances for the team. Expanding on this would lead me to think that some shooters, coaches and managers are better suited to development than necessarily handling those refining the last 5% in the lead-up to an event. So not only does a "development" squad apply to shooting team members, it could include coaches, managers, armourers etc.

There are those developed team members which do need the odd distraction, to stop them from unscrewing their barrel every 5min trying to find a new problem. These developed team members could benefit from a role within the development squad.

Basically developing team members requires more attention (time/man hours) than those much closer to the mark. This doesn't stop all members from training together, but it does bring that extra level of intensity and focus when all members train together. As opposed to turning a training session into a problem solving episode where X has to borrow Y's rifle because their reloads won't chamber today etc. I agree there is a lot we can learn from failure in this respect during training, but how much time do you have to cover off on scenarios where a shooter has to cover off as the wind coach because they locked themselves in caravan. Multi-skilling has it's place in small teams and is often touted in the workforce as a flexible solution but does have a high risk of inefficiency which a workplace can will with on the odd occasion month-to-month, but not so pretty for a one off event.

I'm not sure our current funding models would agree with a development squad, but I'm leaning towards the concept that the closer the funding gets to the grass roots the better off our sport will be overall.

For those concerned my suggestion is aimed at creating some sort of elite clique within the team, don't worry it's purely self-centred. Let's just say I've done my fair share of crashing into teams for the first time in shooting, sports and the workplace with variable results. My signature says it all.

Newer shooters listening in on the communications hearing the back and forth between main and assistant coach will benefit a lot.
Even more if they are plotting because it concentrates the mind.

Experienced team shooters understand the strategy behind shooting order but many newer shooters simply never give it a thought.

It is more important in sling TR shooting because off a rest is less prone to errors.

One thing I think is overdone and even counterproductive is an award for the best individual score.

In rough conditions, the first shooter almost always suffers. But his loss helps fine tune the coach.
In TR, unless this shooter is extremely accurate, the coach is presented with confusing information.

The last shooter is often chosen to be an anchor with nerves of steel. Again far more important when sling shooting but the adrenaline may still surface towards the end of any match.

Because conditions usually worsen later in the day, this shooter often has a depressed score.

Thus the highest score off the rifle maybe quite misleading and in some ways it de-emphasizes the team aspect..


When encouraging people to step into team positions - especially as a coach - it is emphasizing that every coach on the mound will be making errors.
The aim is to make fewer errors than others.

The best coaches will freely relate and analyse some of his errors and not be embarrassed admitting them.


Many older TR shooters have considerable experience with team shoots.
But there are considerable differences between TR and F team and shooter management and coaching skills.
Best to encourage a prospective TR coach to F shoot seriously for a while first.

Peter Smith.

Tony,

You raise a very important point and it depends on the occasion. Your job at a teams championship at the state or national level is to call your shot ... good, 1 o’clock etc to enable the coach to make the best decision and not wait for the target to come up with the spotter. Your entire focus should be preparing for the next shot by looking at the green grass on the mound to relax your eyes as you load to go bang on command again. Getting that shot off in under 8 seconds. The less time you are on the mound the less chance the condition has of changing the better your aggregate will be and other shooters will be benefitting from your results even if you are the guinea pig.

It is a huge problem for coaches who are learning in another scenario when experienced shooters aim off to counter a coach’s move as Danny mentioned earlier.

In a rehearsal or a more relaxed event to have a continuous discussion as you shoot with the coach as a learning experience is important. It will keep the coach honest too. That’s when you can test yourself with mental calculations but its better to keep that to yourself unless you have a sound relationship with the coach. If your brain is quick unlike mine these days, its obviously a benefit to you and can fast track your performance. Its important that shooters continually strive for improvement.

Aaron wouldn’t it be great if some grey nomads in their travels could call in at a club just to coach a few and not shoot.

I agree with Peter, too much is placed on the top shot. There is no “me” in team, its us and them. Quite often the top shot has got there off the efforts of those shooting before them.


There are many paths to developing high performance teams. If am not boring people too much, I think the senior members of the team need to identify where they are at as a team. Yes it is strategic, but if you can identify some processes the task is much easier and you don't get bogged down in time wasting. This is so important because teams get little time to practice and you can tailor the tasks to where you are at.

When any group meets for the first time it could be a forming stage, a getting to know you time, a time for introducing yourself and stating what you bring to the team; and a light hearted overview of aims and general practice by the captain. Its a time to state what you would like to achieve openly and objectively and mention some personal achievements if you can overcome a sense of discomfort. This has nothing to do with bragging rights but would help senior members of a team determine how they can support and develop your skills and abilities and build your confidence. Because one day that could be a role of yours. It is very satisfying to know you can help.

The next stage could be seen as a storming stage. This is where the strengths and weakness of the team and your role could be determined. This is done in consultation with you by the captain and selectors and senior members.

The norming stage is where you have the benchmarks of the team established and the team aims are more focussed on team goals. For instance, you are focussing on getting your gear to a required standard and practicing routines for better communication to facilitate a smooth running structure. The rehearsal of routines will enable the team to perform to the best of its ability as a high performing team.

The performing stage. That's where you want to be.

The final part in the picture is the mourning stage. It is a review of performance. Even in successful teams, shooters may not be available for the next big one because the life of a team is a cycle and one of renewal. These guys and gals make the best mentors and can assist you so that you can enjoy the achievement of belonging and performing to the best of your ability. David.

williada wrote:Aaron wouldn’t it be great if some grey nomads in their travels could call in at a club just to coach a few and not shoot.

There is probably an opportunity to organise a bit of a "contiki" tour for the grey nomads. Clubs could certainly put out an invite if they knew roughly who was in town and when. If as Tony suggested, some might be willing to put some coin down, I don't think the odd touring grey nomad would mind supplementing their pension within the tax limits.

Those Lapua US benchrest tour videos of Jack Neary discussing tuning are a little bit of gold.

ecomeat wrote:David,
I apologise if this is off topic....but it is sort of connected.
Hopefully most agree that shooting under good wind coaches can also be a huge learning experience for the shooter. I may well be doing this wrong, as i have to confess that whilst the Wind Coach is king, & there is no argument there, i find myself also making my own mental calculations "on the run". There is zero conflict with my Coaches instruction, but I am guilty of also using it as a huge learning platform.
Having all of your senses (hopefully) attuned to the myriad of indicators in front of you, quickly making your own mental calculation......then being able to compare YOUR call to that of the Coach, is a wonderful thing for me, the shooter. Of course, I ONLY follow the Coaches call, as mine is nothing more than a quick calculation for my own mental library.
Being able to listen and be guided on "the wind" on every single shot by Andrew Pearce and Jenni Hausler was a wind coaching lesson for me, that money probably couldn't buy. No insult intended, but they have probably got more years of wind reading experience between them , than I am years old I just turned 60. I assume that many other States also had Coaches with many, many years of experience.
Is the shooter allowed to "calculate" as they go, and just for comparisons the way I do ? Or is the shooter specifically supposed to NOT think ......just pull a good shot when told ?

Speaking of "Learning".......when the Teams was over in Tasmania, Tim Nugent, myself and a few others were in the bar (it was the only time we went anywhere near that house, of course ) and Tim asked the question : "If Marty Lobert , (who had recently won the Individual Silver Medal at the FCWC) held a half hour, or one hour Wind READING Clinic....who would pay to go ?"
We were unanimous in our vote , that all would go.....would in fact walk on broken glass to get there.... And all would be prepared to pay $50 or so for the privelege.
Opportunity knocks.....the average F Class marksman is keen to learn.

I personally don't look at the flags at all. You see mirage while aiming so if there is a debate about a shot being out between coaches and I've noticed a mirage change before the shot I may mention it other than that it's shooting, resting and mental program. But even then it depends if you have a coach that wants any type feedback so its up to them how or if you communicate. No active thought process and certainly no calculations while shooting.

If you want to hone the wind reading have a go at coaching! Haha even locally it puts the pressure on! You can learn a lot when just looking at conditions and not shooting but depending on your team you gotta have a pretty thick skin on rough days!

What about a little teams clinic from those involved with the Australian team post national teams or the afternoon of the practice day this year? A practical demonstration while having a bit of commentary / Q&A as it's happening would be a good way of getting information to those there and already interested in team shooting.

Obviously you might want to keep a few trade secrets but it could be a good thing.

Speaking as a team shooter,the method,ecomeat spoke of is alien to the way I shoot,for me the only thing is firing the best shot possible.The only thing down range I see is the target number,after that it is sight alignment and trigger release.Sometimes you may be firing quickly,then there may be quite a wait for coaches to decide the next move,in that time you should be doing the best you can to relax yourself.
When going well,it is almost like shooting down a tunnel and the only thing you are aware of is the coaches calls.If you do fire a shot and it is not as good as it should be,tell the coach,even if the spotter comes up in the middle.
Mike.

mike H wrote:Speaking as a team shooter,the method,ecomeat spoke of is alien to the way I shoot,for me the only thing is firing the best shot possible.The only thing down range I see is the target number,after that it is sight alignment and trigger release.Sometimes you may be firing quickly,then there may be quite a wait for coaches to decide the next move,in that time you should be doing the best you can to relax yourself.
When going well,it is almost like shooting down a tunnel and the only thing you are aware of is the coaches calls.If you do fire a shot and it is not as good as it should be,tell the coach,even if the spotter comes up in the middle.
Mike.

Spot on Mike. Let the coaches handle the conditions. The shooter is then able to concetrate on firing the perfect shot every time. Also concetrating on firing at the correct target....very important. Only interact with the coach if asked or you feel your shot was a bad one. I have often been asked "what were the conditions like while shooting". My answer is " I don't know, I was not watching the conditions". There is no need to.
The Technique of F Class shooting is often undervalued...so the more concentration placed on firing that perfect shot, the better the results can be.

Cheers
Cam

mike H wrote:Speaking as a team shooter,the method,ecomeat spoke of is alien to the way I shoot,for me the only thing is firing the best shot possible.The only thing down range I see is the target number,after that it is sight alignment and trigger release.Sometimes you may be firing quickly,then there may be quite a wait for coaches to decide the next move,in that time you should be doing the best you can to relax yourself.
When going well,it is almost like shooting down a tunnel and the only thing you are aware of is the coaches calls.If you do fire a shot and it is not as good as it should be,tell the coach,even if the spotter comes up in the middle.
Mike.

I did the same thing Mike talked about, I rest while target is being marked but by the time it is back up I am ready to fire.

Always let the coach know if you pulled a bad shot, they have enough on there plate without having to second guess what happened.

Shane

It would seem the high performing team is one that is united and as close as the Three Muskateers. Their routines are well practiced by all to combine as one while executing their specialist roles like a well oiled machine.

This far outweighs the marginal technological advantage that top teams have used to date. What was new last time to gain an edge is already history. I remember addressing an Australian team on positive compensation back in 2003 at Bendigo. I look at web sites os and the chatter recently; you guessed it, positive compensation as well as tuners. The trickle down effect to the ordinary member takes a while but it is a very positive spinoff from team shooting. I think the secret edge is the leadership of the Captain and coaches.

Lets assume the playing field has been leveled in terms of equipment and the rules are not obscure or the pitch has not been doctored and it has happened if you examine captains reports of the past, the best team will win and make the most of the opportunities.

I am convinced methodical hard work, ticking off the objectives in gear and communication, ensures that focus will beat myth, suspicion, gamesmanship and diversionary tactics to take your mind off the job. Don’t get sucked in. I remember well an over friendly Tasmanian wanting to shout me a few beers and pick my brain as a young Victorian representative before the big event in SA. It didn’t work because the Captain had briefed us. Beware.

Julius Caesar once said, “A person who can follow orders is fit to command”. If you take the hierarchical model into recent history, the British had a habit of selecting the Captain for the TR teams who then selected the team. The obvious unity of the team has been very successful for years. I’m sure a lot of talent was left out. We tend to look seriously at team member compatibility too, and that’s why it is important in our system to develop a professional attitude to business and put the party agenda where it belongs outside the team arena. I also remember being the youngest member of a Victorian team (before the advent of junior teams) over in the West, having to sleep in the hut with a chronic snorer. The senior members knew about this guy and made other arrangements. That situation would not happen today because you would be risking total team performance if you were an astute Captain.

If you are not at the level of a high performing team what can you do?

In other sports the multi modal leadership model has taken root where specialist coaches report to the master coach. Much in the way a patient is discussed at a hospital by medical experts of equal standing. The leadership role is taken by the person with the most expertise with the problem at hand. So put a substitute coach in at long range but don't wear them out shooting and coaching at all ranges.

You may fall back on the theory of the second best, which applies mostly at the district level where consultative decision takes place because expectations about a professional approach by all concerned are unrealistic. People’ motives and background are different.
It might be the best shot coaches and does not shoot. This will allow more team points to be gained with that person’s talent being used across many shooters rather than being restricted to just his or her shoots.

I remember the dilemma I had at a district level in the late 70’s when some oldies had difficulty accepting a young bloke coaching them. My remedy was to allow some recalcitrants to use a scope after consultation with the Captain about my plan as the coach. I knew they would fall into routine because of the security the scope gave them. In the end the scope merely positioned their bodies and they hardly glanced at it. After we won that Victorian Teams Championship at Williamstown, it was never an issue again in subsequent wins, again the next year and again and again. So young leaders, I think I know where you are coming from. There is more than one way to skin a cat. The title does not grant you privilege unless its a high performing team that is highly motivated and trained; and your abilities are based on merit. The important thing is to learn from the experience and your reward will come again.

There are obvious cross purposes with new team members in F Class. Its a storming stage that will bear fruit with encouragement and direction. David.

There are many insightful comments above. Mine are more simple.

I shot my first team event last year in the North QLD Pennants. I must admit that I left wondering what I had done. I was a complete shooting whore, Phil Bonaventura put he rifle and loads together, Jim Bloomfield called the shots, all I did was squeeze the trigger. At the presentation I was informed I had the highest individual score. That didn't seem to mean much either. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I realised that I had done my bit to a tee. I had my 6.5x284 and it was shooting well. Every one else had a 284. I wanted to shoot my rifle because I'd put a lot of effort into getting it shooting well, but I left it at home and shot a 284 because that was best for the team. I lay on the mound and put the cross hair where Jim told me to, I then ensured I released every shot as smoothly as I could. In short I put MY requirements in a ziplock and I did as I was told.
We lost to the better team, not by much though.

Same in NZ but this time with my own rifle. I got it shooing the best I could, lay down at 1000yds and shot the best individual score for that stage. I put the shots at the right elevation, Greg stuck them in the middle. It was pretty easy for me though. At 1000yds I was more than happy to defer the windage call.

I'll be the first to admit that I can't read the wind worth a damn. Any decent scores I get as an individual are due to the conditions being favourable. Wind reading will come in time, but until then (and beyond), I'll enjoy the camaraderie and knowledge share that team events foster.