OzFclass

I've found factory Savage M12 barrels to be a good entry level barrel for an absolute beginner that's learning all the ropes of F-class but they aren't consistent. Well tuned, the one's I've had have mostly grouped well but thrown flyers to ruin tight groups and scores. The difference in results after fitting custom barrels is ENORMOUS.

I have a Hawkeye and Savage factory barrels look terrible through a bore scope, even the ones that shoot well. As a consequence they also foul easily and are hard to clean properly. Of my factory barrels now sitting in store, they all have what look like shudder marks or grooves perpendicular to the bore line, down the entire length of the bore. The first thought that came to mind when I saw them was that it looked like the button had been shuddering, jumping or something to that effect though I really wouldn't have a clue what it is as I have no other experience here.

They look far different to custom barrels.

The M10 barrels looks the same, but the same degree of accuracy is not required for that type of rifle so its not an issue. It has its own problems though. I don't believe the barrel has been stress relieved properly because as the barrel heats up, the groups at 100y (although very tight) walk from left to right and always have.

I think the right process to accursing a Savage model 12 on a budget is to bed the action and free float the tang first, get rid of the taper on the bottom of the factory F-class stock (machining bag riders into the fore end also gives a vast improvement on stability) and then replace the barrel.

Agreed DenisA. By making a new stock, replacing the barrel, and going for a Vee block that is what I'd be doing.

I'm a bit taken aback to read what you are saying about the Savage barrels. I was sure one of the supposed things about the Savage Palma FTR team was that all they shot was standard factory rifles (and won!)? If they are that bad they should swap under warranty.

Still not sure of the benefits of bore scoping in this case, could look terrible, could look great, either way it is going to result in a new barrel.

Eric B wrote:I'm a bit taken aback to read what you are saying about the Savage barrels. I was sure one of the supposed things about the Savage Palma FTR team was that all they shot was standard factory rifles (and won!)?

Back 4 or 5 decades when the Mini Cooper S blew everything into the weeds in production car events, the motors of the team cars were special assembly of standard parts - the longest tolerance con rods, the longest tolerance pistons, shortest blocks, shortest heads - still standard, but specially selected & the equivalent of a specialty garage rebuild.

Eric B wrote:Agreed DenisA. By making a new stock, replacing the barrel, and going for a Vee block that is what I'd be doing.

I'm a bit taken aback to read what you are saying about the Savage barrels. I was sure one of the supposed things about the Savage Palma FTR team was that all they shot was standard factory rifles (and won!)? If they are that bad they should swap under warranty.

Still not sure of the benefits of bore scoping in this case, could look terrible, could look great, either way it is going to result in a new barrel.

That has been my experience, It would be interesting to hear if Keith H or Matt P have seen the same thing at a commercial level with these barrels.
Shane, Have you scoped these factory barrels?
It would be interesting to hear others experience here too.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Savage teams have a little extra attention paid to their rifles rather than simply an off the shelf unit. They're representing a product and which makes it a key form of marketing.

I'll try and get a bore photo up tonight for interest sake.

Denis
My 6.5 had the same marks you have seen.
Can't say what barrels Team Savage shoot but another sponsor of the U.S. teams has been Bartlein I may recall?
and if I was the marketing manager for savage I would want the best equipment possible supplied to the sponsored team! It might have Savage stamped on it but ... Same goes for any "factory" equipment.
The days of Bathurst 1971 are long gone !!
Of course these are all just surmises drawn on a long bow by my wandering mind?.....
i don't think you will find a standard Savage placing in one our OPM let alone a Queens!
Maybe someone has the exception and will come out to prove me wrong?
Shane

There are several references to be found on the internet.

"Savage even run their own FTR team, who reputedly run these rifles exactly as they come out of the factory. "

"However, there is one option – Savage. Savage – and no manufacturer but Savage – produce a rifle which is truly ‘out of the box’ competition-ready at a sensible price."
[url]
http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=1426[/url]

and:-

"I should add that Team Savage shoots the .308 caliber Savage Model 12 F-TR (out of the box) at national and international competitions and they do very, very well. As such, they can justifiably take issue with my comments on Savage barrels. You can’t argue with success."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_M12-Fclass.htm

If Savage have allowed any dishonesty or negligence by omission on that they all us all barrels.

Don't know if it's changed but back when a friend was part of the importing company, all Savage rifles were test grouped at the factory across the mezzanine. Wouldn't be dishonest if you kept good groupers for your team.

If you were to judge barrels by how they look with a bore scope, I haven't seen a single Savage barrel that I'd fit, even to a scrub gun but some do work quite well, I doubt "Team Savage" just go and pick one off the shelf
Matt P

Matt P wrote:If you were to judge barrels by how they look with a bore scope, I haven't seen a single Savage barrel that I'd fit, even to a scrub gun but some do work quite well, I doubt "Team Savage" just go and pick one off the shelf
Matt P

Here in Australia I'm sure consumers are protected from false and misleading advertising. Given that Savage or their authorized distributors would have supplied the rifles (and probably supporting info) for reviews like these then it isn't a big stretch to say Savage have a lot of ownership here. I can't find ANY corrections or true quality statements from Savage.

All this is probably a little off topic, especially as we all know Savage won't ever step up here. Anyone got the Action plans/measurements please?

There is no one in the print media capable of giving you an opinion on savage barrels for target use, and no one better than a gunsmith and his fellow forum members here to decide what works and what does not. And no way you would be able to prove anything or get satisfaction from savage. (well, maybe, some have tried in the US, see the savage shooters forum)

I have had 4 factory barrels from savage and all were finished (internally) as rough as guts , visually, but one was a fantastic shooter anyways. (.223 LRPV) Your odds will improve with aftermarket barrels, significantly.

As for vee blocks, the one in the $500 choate tactical stock is fantastic, holds everything as solid as a rock and the savage saum in it has won against barnards and other rifles. , even though there are clear reasons why barnards are better to own as a whole. This vee block is similar to the hs precision above , but the stock has a flat lower edge for better tracking, its denser, and i have added lead to it to bring it up to 9.5kg (fopen)

I tried to take some pics through my Hawkeye of a factory M12 .308 FTR barrel. As Tony can testify too, they're fiddly to get. They're clear enough to give you the idea of what factory Savage barrel looks like inside. A quality barrel is smooth as silk inside.

The grooves are the widest sections and the lands are the narrower sections despite the illusion that your eyes may be seeing.

This is a relatively unworn area approx. 17" down the barrel.

Excuse the line in the picture. Its not a crack, its a piece of plastic thread as it moves around. Not keen to pull it apart to remove.

That looks like a good one

Interesting photos. I'm pretty sure those are machining marks. Savage must be aware of that and it can't be blamed on post sales activity. I've read in a very old barrel making book that stainless at the time of the books printing was considered unforgiving to machine and not of the best hardness wise either. From those images I'd say Savage have a heap more work to do in their machining processes. Maybe we have all sacrificed the best possible barrel material for ease of cleaning and low corrosion potential.

You wouldn't see that without a bore scope.

Matt P wrote:That looks like a good one

Ha,ha. So true based on the few examples I've seen. The marks in my first factory 6BR were much more aggressive than this and it shot well for club level stuff. Always had random flyers though.

This is the first time I've put a bore scope up this one. I've never shot this barrel, I acquired it from a friend. From the 100y targets that I saw from this barrel it shot tight groups well under .5moa.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/gunsmith ... gunsmith1/

Here's a pretty interesting article in layman's terms about process' that the different manufacturers use.

As much attention as the rifling process gets, the reaming of the bore following the deep-hole drilling is an equally critical operation. After all, once the rifling is done-by whatever method-the bore accounts for roughly 50 percent of the internal surface of the barrel. Therefore, the smoothness and uniformity of the land surface from chamber to muzzle is just as important as the groove surface.

The initial hole that’s drilled is several thousandths under the desired finished diameter. For a .30-caliber barrel, for example, the hole might be as small as .285 inch. The progressive reaming operations that follow enlarge the hole a few thousandths per pass, while at the same time smooth the walls to a higher degree of polish each time. The final ream will bring the bore to a high state of polish and to the desired .300-inch diameter.

With the Savage bore pic's above, it's interesting that the teeth on the lands look deep but very consistent. In the grooves they're consistent, marry up to the teeth on the lands but they've really been squashed down flat by the button.
I wonder if Savage might intentionally use some kind of process between long hole drilling and reaming and buttoning that puts those teeth there. Maybe it's an affordable process for a factory barrel that reduces the load on the button, creates less stress surrounding the rifling or just allows the button to produce more consistent results???

There's some great pictures in this accurate shooter thread too. http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... r.3835697/