OzFclass

Barry if you don't mind me asking... I assume that you're talking about using a barrel tuner. Is that correct?

Barry Davies wrote:...On the question of the 10 match grade barrels---- assuming all to be from reputable barrel makers and within the known defined dimensions that produce accuracy, with twists to suit the projectiles to be used, and of a stiffness factor to capably shoot less than 1/2 moa groups, in addition to being correctly machined---
The answer is 10....

Barry,
That was a lesson to us all in how to appear to answer a question without actually doing so.

Barry Davies wrote:...If after all of this and after sufficient rounds to properly wear in, I can still only achieve greater than 1.5 moa I would have to say that maybe I have got a dud--- but have'nt as yet.

So what do you do with barrels which are better than 1.5 but no better than 0.75? Sell them to a C-grader?

Alan

Hi M12.

Yes, we use barrel tuners. But, a barrel tuner will not compensate for bad loading techniques.

Barry

Alan,
You do me an injustice--I expected more.
I thought I answered the question--the answer was 10.--the proviso's are all what is necessary to produce a match grade barrel.
As I said I have not yet had occassion to return a barrel because I could not get it to shoot.
.And, no I would not sell it to a C grader--I resent the suggestion that I would.
I'm out, if you are going to insult my integrity sort your own problems out.
Barry

Barry Davies wrote:Hi M12.

Yes, we use barrel tuners. But, a barrel tuner will not compensate for bad loading techniques.

Barry

No argument there.
As someone who's just booked his rifle in for a new match barrel (replacing the factory barrel) it's a daunting prospect to think about trying to do traditional BR style load development to tune the load to the rifle anr thus achieve the accuracy presently being discussed.

But producing some consistent loads and instead tuning the rifle to the load would have the potential to reduce that pain significantly.

Does anyone know what tuners are out there that would be suitable for fitment to a medium palma Krieger? The only ones i'm aware of are the shadetree and the beggs and the muzzle diameter is to small for them.

M12LRPV wrote:

Barry Davies wrote:Hi M12.

Yes, we use barrel tuners. But, a barrel tuner will not compensate for bad loading techniques.

Barry

No argument there.
As someone who's just booked his rifle in for a new match barrel (replacing the factory barrel) it's a daunting prospect to think about trying to do traditional BR style load development to tune the load to the rifle anr thus achieve the accuracy presently being discussed.

But producing some consistent loads and instead tuning the rifle to the load would have the potential to reduce that pain significantly.

Does anyone know what tuners are out there that would be suitable for fitment to a medium palma Krieger? The only ones i'm aware of are the shadetree and the beggs and the muzzle diameter is to small for them.

I have a Davies tuner on mine and it shoots a honest 0.5 MOA when I point it right.
Matt P

I think you will find that Davies do a very reputable barrel tuner.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~bnjdavies@ ... rrel_Tuner

Thanks Matt and Lynn

Sorry Barry - thought I replied to this earlier - must have previewed without posting.

Barry Davies wrote:...I thought I answered the question--the answer was 10.--the proviso's are all what is necessary to produce a match grade barrel...

Your answer stated the obvious without addressing the question. A match grade barrel with all the provisos you mention probably will shoot ½ MOA at 300. But what about barrels as they come in the real world?

Barry Davies wrote:And, no I would not sell it to a C grader--I resent the suggestion that I would.

If you thought I was serious about the selling to a C-Grader, then you don't know me - it was joke. I thought your tongue in cheek answer needed some humour in return .

Alan

Out of 10 barrels as they come in the real world, I think maybe 8 would make CONSISTANT half inch and one or two of those would take a lot of work to get there. A few would do it REGULARLY in a few testing sessions and 1 or two would do it with many loads in all sorts of conditions.

Of the 2 which dont CONSISTANTLY give 1/2" groups, I would say that with one, occaisionaly you would be lucky enough to get a 1/2" group, then next time you fire the same load it is not as good.
With the worst one in 10 or one in 20, you would rarely get 1/2" groups.

And no, I wouldnt sell mine to a C grader.

I would definitely always keep it to sell cheap to an A grade competitor.

Well it looks like Rod and I almost agree . 1 in 10 or 20 is pretty close.
By the way we are not related--for better or worse
Alan the quip about selling to a C grader was in bad taste as it has been known to happen. ( not by us ) however I accept your rather weird sense of humour-- actually I like Rod's better--sell to an A grader--thats good
These days it is very unlikely that you will get a bad barrel, as all barrels produced by reputable manufacturers are of Match Grade--- yes there are still some cheap ones out there and you get what you pay for.
Barry

Well, all I can say is I must be doing something wrong fellas, because I've never had a barrel/load combination that in ideal conditions would consistently shoot under ½ MOA vertical.

G'day all,
well I think someone should start a new topic on Long Range load developement techniques and how to use tuners for all the up and coming shooters (me included) to whom all this talk may seem a bit mystical.

I cant recall any topics that cover this issue in the last few years of watching this forum.

Any takers?

cheerio Ned

I had a similar concern - but I discovered that there are two secrets - one is to measure centre to centre, the other is to shoot about 15 shots, but only count the three that are touching Then you can get teeny groups!

In all seriousness - the local gunsmith (whose name figures prominently in international benchrest competition from time to time) tells me that he has hammered one barrel from one of the most prestigious makers into the ground because he could not get it to perform despite being unable to find anything wrong with it using all the resources at his disposal. I'm guessing that's much less than 1%.
During most of my development sessions, the groups rarely go wider than 0.5 moa at 100m, but the fact that some of the groups with the lowest e.s. are 'slightly' bigger than strings with higher velocity spreads leads me to suspect environment and shooter as the principle factors at play. I also wonder how statistically significant a 5 shot dataset is...
The first 5 shots (cleaning between each one) from my .308 formed a .2 moa group with the starting load (I've kept that target!). I've never done it since, and the load I settled on is not that one. Silly me!
cheers,
Andrew

Jeeze AlanF, dont you know, all groups should be measured at the key board.
If real world groups counted, the only time I always got 1/2 moa of verticle is if I did what Alocky did and only count the 3 best shots, or if I measure outside to outside at short range.
Maybe we are mere wind readers, not tuners.

FWIW, the 2 barrels I have which just cant shoot, after countless load developement rounds, with different powders, bullets,primers,seating depths, coatings, prayers to 3 different gods and 4 different styles of Feng Shui, are the same 2 brands as my best 2 barrels. Some just wont shoot, for me anyway.