OzFclass

Razer wrote:

AlanF wrote:

plumbs7 wrote:Shooting into the bank for the first range would work for a Queens and give nobody a wind advrage other than puffs of dust !
What do people think?

There are problems with that - particularly with ETs, most of which are left up. Even with manual targets, it would require a huge amount of additional communications between mound and butts to get individual targets raised and lowered. I think the additonal target wear would just need to be factored in

I thought that the idea was just for fouling shots, if so, then why is a scoring target needed which gives conditions feedback?
Why not a dead unmanned non ET target at the end of the butts where shooters can just point and fire.
Needs no maintenance, shooters can line up and shoot at RO's discretion. At every range if need be!
First down get to shoot first, that is of course, those that really need to foul the barrel?

Top idea !

Instead of reinventing the wheel the USA method with non convertible sighters at the first range of the day sounds simple to me. Not sure how they handle sighters on the rest of the ranges, perhaps someone can expand. As Alan said these sighters may be limited in number.
I can imagine a line up of shooters to have a go at one dummy target would take a long time to get through. It would have to begin well before the first range started and many ranges cannot start shooting until 8am.

Steve

And then there are those who clean between ranges

Zero range works well at Belmont.
Amazing how many guns need re sighting each morning, mine included

But of course, the Belmont zero range, along with all ranges, isn't available until 8:00 according to range approval & with shooting starting at that time for the QRA Queens, it's only available, without penalty, to those not involved in shooting first & scoring - and if squadding by division & performance were put in place, that could put paid to the whole FO squad any given day.

Barry Davies wrote:And then there are those who clean between ranges

I think there are limits to how far you can go with this. In my experience cleaning between ranges isn 't common, and is normally because a barrel is approaching "retirement", or occasionally, it is being run in at a comp. Having experienced both situations, I personally wouldn't expect any special consideration

Footsore wrote:Instead of reinventing the wheel the USA method with non convertible sighters at the first range of the day sounds simple to me. Not sure how they handle sighters on the rest of the ranges, perhaps someone can expand. As Alan said these sighters may be limited in number.
I can imagine a line up of shooters to have a go at one dummy target would take a long time to get through. It would have to begin well before the first range started and many ranges cannot start shooting until 8am
Steve

First. Not every one wants or needs fouling shots so any shot used to foul a barrel needs to be neutral in feed back. That means shooting on an unresponsive target.
Why wear out a possible hummer barrel (and depreciate the target face)just to get the same advantage as the one who only says he needs foulers but is actually testing conditions?
Using an unresponsive target at the end of the butts need not be restricted to the first range and can be used while the competition is underway(as said previously, first down in the morning get priority). Just needs someone to clear rifles. This will also cater for those who not only need unlimited foulers, but also require a warm barrel.
As this means having one less active target throughput the competition it would depend on the particular range (most major events such as Queens are shot on ranges that could handle that)and would, for obvious reasons not be possible at the average OPM where those with barrels that need foulers would just have to suck it up.
How you cater for teams is a different kettle of fish!
Next we have a power point alongside each shooting position so shooters can warm their electric blanket on cold days and also cuddle their rifle to maintain its barrel warmth!
I, personally, do not agree with foulers as it is starting to influence the rules under which we shoot to the extent that I envisage a very large can of worms emerging.

Ray,

I think your point about testing the conditions is valid, but everyone would have the opportunity to do so. Maybe if the number of non-convertible sighters was limited to say 4 or 5 then it wouldn't cause too much barrel or target wear?

Alan

Razer wrote:I, personally, do not agree with foulers as it is starting to influence the rules under which we shoot to the extent that I envisage a very large can of worms emerging.

I agree. I would support an additional sighter if it were pushed for, but that's as far I believe it should go if that at all. Preparation for an event, knowing and understanding what the individual gun needs is as much a part of this competition as wind reading, technique, knowing your equipment, remembering to put your jocks on when you get up and making it to the range on time.

There are bigger issues that need attention first.

It is good though that the rules have been clarified for those that can get to a zero range prior to their shoot.

Simple solution ,go a day earlier

DenisA wrote:...knowing and understanding what the individual gun needs is as much a part of this competition as wind reading, technique...

I don't agree entirely with that Denis, for team shooting maybe. But there's a difference in value between what a shooter must do based on their own skill, and what can be done for them by others, or what they can buy their way out of. I think this current issue of fouling shots may be best dealt with by eliminating the need for skillful management of clean barrel problems (or having those who can afford it buying more barrels), so that more shooters can perform on their true merits.

I disagree with you, Alan. There is already a sport set up with that in mind. it's called short range benchrest. It eliminates handloading skill, to the extent that, being shot at a single distance at a time, as long as you load on the weather side of the centre of the ladder test, you're usually OK, as long as you can spit five out in under 10 seconds & ten off under 18-20 you're likely to avoid wind issues & you can rectify scrubbing the crap out of your barrel by shooting unlimited sighters, as long as you can get the counting shots off in time.

I don't see F class as something new, just a continuation on a long history of open range shooting that started in 1861 & has moved with the times ever since. However, there are some traditions have continued & one of them is getting a gun to the line that is shoot ready. It seems to me that we now have a cadre of shooters who don't have the skill of cleaning a rifle enough to preserve the barrel without destroying it's accuracy for an extended time, not that I wouldn't take the opportunity to warm a barrel at a zero range if the opportunity arose - but I can live without it.

johnk wrote:I disagree with you, Alan. There is already a sport set up with that in mind. it's called short range benchrest. It eliminates handloading skill, to the extent that, being shot at a single distance at a time, as long as you load on the weather side of the centre of the ladder test, you're usually OK, as long as you can spit five out in under 10 seconds & ten off under 18-20 you're likely to avoid wind issues & you can rectify scrubbing the crap out of your barrel by shooting unlimited sighters, as long as you can get the counting shots off in time.

I don't see F class as something new, just a continuation on a long history of open range shooting that started in 1861 & has moved with the times ever since. However, there are some traditions have continued & one of them is getting a gun to the line that is shoot ready. It seems to me that we now have a cadre of shooters who don't have the skill of cleaning a rifle enough to preserve the barrel without destroying it's accuracy for an extended time, not that I wouldn't take the opportunity to warm a barrel at a zero range if the opportunity arose - but I can live without it.

My sentiments exactly John.
Keith H.

I can't help thinking this discussion has become a case of all pushing our own barrows. Those who've had problems with clean barrels want fouling shots, those who think they know how to manage it don't want fouling shots, and they are joined by those who haven't had the problem (yet).

The V was halved because of the super groups from FC ,Ay Barry, ime sure you and I had something to do with this , if this keeps going it could shrink again, like John said, there is Benchrest if you want Super groups, FC came from FB dont forget, where will it end ? Thats why a while ago I went to BR ,Chop