OzFclass

Agree with you 100%, you have to keep on top of the barrels.

GSells wrote:Kieth , if it’s ok to ask ? What was that foaming cleaner that u used ? Nulon airfilter Cleaner ? If so , is this the kind of product that would help ? I know you have said a number times lol! Of what your recommendations are , but I for one really respect and appreciate your thoughts . Regards G Man lol!

The best product I have found to date for carbon removal is Nulon Air Intake Cleaner Foaming. Use with a bronze brush. Most importantly never let the sun set on a fouled barre........think about that for a bitl!!!!!
Keith H.
Geriatric Gunsmith.

watrob wrote:There are two things you can do with this barrel, used Jb or throw it in the bin. I shoot amongst other things 6PPC, we clean after every 8 shots and use a brass brush. We JB or Ozzo after every 50 rounds, we shoot tiny little holes people dream about and throw our barrels away after 500 to 600 rounds. Its really no different whether its a .284, 7 WSM, 7 SAUM, etc, barrels are on there way out after 600 to 800 rounds.

I re-barrel before the start of each season, if the barrel does not shoot by 100 rounds the new backup barrel is fitted, I see so many competitors trying to extend the life of their barrel nearing the end of the season just falling further back in the rankings. When they finally put a new barrel on, only to hear them say I should have done it 500 rounds ago.

I know not everyone can have a reserve of barrels, but in the 5 different comps I compete in, to be in the top five and have a chance of winning at season end your barrel would have done close to 600 rounds, I run two barrels so to have no more than 400 rounds or so on each of them by season end. I ran second on Saturday, lost by .9 of one point, the guy that came 3rd was a further 1 point behind, all of us are running new season barrels.

And as far as hummer barrels go, all my barrels are hummers, why shoot a barrel that is not in a comp. You spend all week preparing your load to shot a comp on the weekend, if I don't shot well then I know its me, not the Rile and not the Load, no excuses, I shoot to compete, not compete to shoot? Am I an exception to the norm, don't thing so, the top 5 guys do what I do and even bring 2 LG's & 2 HG's to comps to shoot the weather condition on the day, calculating if they are shooting early morning or later in the day when conditions change.

This barrel may or not be saved, but it's going to need to be replace sooner rather than later.

Yep.....all of the above!!!
Keith H.

GSells wrote:

watrob wrote:The secrete is not to let carbon form in the first place (prevention is better than cure). I would rather over clean or keep clean a barrel, now some believe you shorten its life (I do not agree with that, 6PPC proves that wrong). So lets say instead of 800 rounds you get 600 because of cleaning against a barrel that say after 300 rounds is carbon fouled plus copper overlay and does not shoot, then at 400 rounds you realise the problem, the damage and fire cracking has started, you have to aggressively clean anyway and the barrel has not shot well since reaching 250 rounds and now the barrel only lasts to 600 rounds anyway.

So a clean barrel that shoots right up to 600, or a carbon fouled, fire cracked with copper layers that has gone off at 300, so how many comps have you lost. I have spoken to so many shooters who have been told all you need to do is patch occasional and never us a brush and they wonder why they shoot 1" groups at a 100yards.

I mean no ill to the Azzo, but just patching out the barrel does not get it clean, the layers build up, and if you notice when you use a brass brush they wear out pretty quick, they are softer than SS and you are using a lubricant as well. Hope the barrel comes back for you?

Hey Rob , do u have any old barrels you want to clear out ??
Haha ! But seriously!! Lol!
I use to be in the no clean brigade especially with a bronze brush , but have changed my ways !! I’ve brought a few barrels back from the dead and now they , one in particular is doing well ! I’ve seen a clubmate of mine shoot her .284 from Raton into the 4000 rounds and has only changed it for good measure and it was still wracking the x ring at loacal prize meets !!

But I agree with u Rob , it pays to keep on top of it ! But use hoppes straight after a shoot for the day , leave overnight and bronze brush out and patch out with kg or eliminator and kero solvent patch in the morning . Autosol every 100 rounds . And u really need a borescope , or one is just guessing? Lyman bore scope are quite good for the money!

A borescope did not save Azzo's barrel..........did it????? Having a borescope does not make you an expert in using one!!! Just like having a lathe & a chambering reamer doesn't make you a gunsmith!!!!!
Keith H.
Geriatric Gunsmith.

Wooo, steady up Keith, never said I was an expert and definitely not an Gunsmith; just like getting behind a gun, doesn’t makes you a shooter.

I used to be a right handed TR shooter in the 90’s and always employ Phil M. (still now) as my Gunsmith. While playing Rugby I split my right eye socket in half. 16 years later (2016) I started shooting again, left handed F-TR. Won the F-TR NQRA Queens in 2017 and the F-Open NRAA Champs in 2018.

Admit I’m still learning the new cleaning methods and everyone has different views. Just thought I add a post to see what I could learn about the new caliber I.e. not a 144gn out of a 308.

Azzopardi wrote:Wooo, steady up Keith, never said I was an expert and definitely not an Gunsmith; just like getting behind a gun, doesn’t makes you a shooter.

I used to be a right handed TR shooter in the 90’s and always employ Phil M. (still now) as my Gunsmith. While playing Rugby I split my right eye socket in half. 16 years later (2016) I started shooting again, left handed F-TR. Won the F-TR NQRA Queens in 2017 and the F-Open NRAA Champs in 2018.

Admit I’m still learning the new cleaning methods and everyone has different views. Just thought I add a post to see what I could learn about the new caliber I.e. not a 144gn out of a 308.

And thanks for sharing! I remember a while ago Azza , ecomeat put on display for the world , “How to Stuff a good BART Barrel !” He could have kept the situation to himself . But chose not to and posted it on this forum. It looked like Grapevines in the grooves and a good portion of the inside just gone ! Bartlien ‘s were kind of put on trial and we were all wondering how those grapevines got there .

I must say I did put it up early in the piece what the cause was and was mildly dismissed lol!
But putting on the forum engaged Dave Mac and PSmith I think it was and they got a 6 mm barrel with a bronze brush and losso paste and must have have worn out their arms and actually replicated the damage!! Quite a fete I would suggest!!
Point is , being brave and posted things that go wrong has saved all those in the sport a lot of grief!
And to that alone I know I am very grateful as I am sure so is everyone else .

Since I’ve opened up a bit , I wasn’t go to say anything but again for the sport and for those up and coming...... 2016 Nats the lil 7/08 ai shooting great and back then I only believed in patching only and also shooting a whole Queens without cleaning! Well shot it to the end I think I got 6 th at the ton . I thought , I am not cleaning this thing ever ..... it’s that good !!

Went to Monto opm a month later dirty barrel and the carbon had turned white now !! Well the rifle was just not happy I got bit of a lesson!! And was way down the list and also had a biggest head and ego thinking that I’ll cream this shoot , lol!! I had trigger failure as well and some lovely people loaned me a 22 br to finish . But was near last !! Ok I had been using the same carbon remover as u Azza prior to that and I’ll say don’t use it !! The only good thing about it , is the orange smell ! Smells yummy . As a carbon remover , it falls short !!
So I got home tail between my legs and copping heaps about how the 7-08 ai is crap etc blah blah blah!
Got out some eliminator from the same company I believe and I got a whole pkt of 100 hybrids out of the barrel and 500 kg of 2209 . I remember Cam Mac ( Rip) once telling me about bore bright and proceeded with a patch around a wool mop for some time , then patch out with wd 40 clean ! It took 12 months of of cleaning with Autosol , kg paste , eliminator after shooting . Also revised the load and backed off and at Gundy opm it shot like stink and won in very windy conditions against Saums and 7 wsm’s , 4 th in the fateful Nats Leadup first day and won 300 yds 60.8 then 3 rd in the NZ Nats leadup short to mid range ( then I crashed and burned from there on lol ! Not any of my rifles fault !) .
But that barrel turned around and still continues today with all of the landed smooth for the first 10 mm !! And it looks really good up the bore after that ( although like Kieth says , maybe I don’t know what I am looking at lol! )

I hope u have a cuppa handy haha! I am not finished!
Fast forward to the Saturday practice for Trans Tasman . It was our first practice as a team and my Bart .284 ( Smithed by Mark Fairbarn) was crap !! Was fine the day before . And my roomies wasn’t much better but AVW shot a rare 60 at 900 at trentham in Friday practice ! So we proceeded to scrub the fire truck out of them with me singing my whole ABBA collection playing on my iPhone and of course “ land down under !!” For for me several hours ! I must say Albert and Marcus C really taught me how to clean a barrel , the whole Comp over there I was fighting carbon !! ( the Kg products were great , thanks sponsors , I went through 1/2 of the kg carbon and copper remover over there and used kg paste as well ) I recall my roomie getting red stuff and just muck out of his barrel and out of mine copper and carbon!


Anyway next day for teams and throughout the whole Comp all of my barrels were on song and so were our teams ! I am reminiscing again I know , but what a great experience to win with my fellow Aussie , shame the individuals didn’t work out for me . I tried !!

But back on topic ! I HATE CARBON !!

I hope none of u haven’t fallen asleep!! Or maybe if you suffer from insomnia I’ve put u to sleep !!
Regards Graham.

Ps I found go pro vision of the 7-08 ai at Trantham on Friday Practice! It was the only go pro footage shot for the whole trip! Enjoy !!

It also shows a carbon stuffed barrel can be revived !! Good luck Mate !
https://youtu.be/Y4KRnyEajU0

KHGS wrote:

GSells wrote:

watrob wrote:The secrete is not to let carbon form in the first place (prevention is better than cure). I would rather over clean or keep clean a barrel, now some believe you shorten its life (I do not agree with that, 6PPC proves that wrong). So lets say instead of 800 rounds you get 600 because of cleaning against a barrel that say after 300 rounds is carbon fouled plus copper overlay and does not shoot, then at 400 rounds you realise the problem, the damage and fire cracking has started, you have to aggressively clean anyway and the barrel has not shot well since reaching 250 rounds and now the barrel only lasts to 600 rounds anyway.

So a clean barrel that shoots right up to 600, or a carbon fouled, fire cracked with copper layers that has gone off at 300, so how many comps have you lost. I have spoken to so many shooters who have been told all you need to do is patch occasional and never us a brush and they wonder why they shoot 1" groups at a 100yards.

I mean no ill to the Azzo, but just patching out the barrel does not get it clean, the layers build up, and if you notice when you use a brass brush they wear out pretty quick, they are softer than SS and you are using a lubricant as well. Hope the barrel comes back for you?

Hey Rob , do u have any old barrels you want to clear out ??
Haha ! But seriously!! Lol!
I use to be in the no clean brigade especially with a bronze brush , but have changed my ways !! I’ve brought a few barrels back from the dead and now they , one in particular is doing well ! I’ve seen a clubmate of mine shoot her .284 from Raton into the 4000 rounds and has only changed it for good measure and it was still wracking the x ring at loacal prize meets !!

But I agree with u Rob , it pays to keep on top of it ! But use hoppes straight after a shoot for the day , leave overnight and bronze brush out and patch out with kg or eliminator and kero solvent patch in the morning . Autosol every 100 rounds . And u really need a borescope , or one is just guessing? Lyman bore scope are quite good for the money!

A borescope did not save Azzo's barrel..........did it????? Having a borescope does not make you an expert in using one!!! Just like having a lathe & a chambering reamer doesn't make you a gunsmith!!!!!
Keith H.
Geriatric Gunsmith.

A borescope did not save Azzo's barrel..........did it????? Well its a bit like going to the doctors and getting the old finger up the rectum for a prostate check, the doctors says I have some bad news for you? .........You reply, I sort of guest the problem as I have not been able to pee for the last 3 years.

In other words stick the bore scope up there a little earlier and don't wait for the rifle to go off tune?

Just to respond to Sungazer, JB dimensionally alters barrel dimensions because it is an abrasive of about 1000 grit. Now when it is applied to rag or patch wrapped over around a flexible surface such as a bronze brush, a bristle brush or a mop the barrel dimensions are at great risk of uneven wear and extreme wear as Ecomeat discovered.

Consider how JB is used by many, the repetition of cleaning cycles and what sections of the barrel are given a literal pasting. There is certainly less risk of damage if the paste is applied to a patch on a solid copper jag or a couple of felt pellets overlying a special jag. The felt pellets fill more of the grooves. You can get them from Brownells and are great for solvent application.

It is important to remove as much carbon first with patches soaked in carbon cleaner then attack the copper with a separate solvent, then go in again with a bronze brush dipped in carbon cleaner to scrape out carbon left at the junction of lands and grooves before attempting to use JB in order to reduce the amount of scrubbing with paste.

Carbon cannot be dissolved, but good surfactants get under it and lift it off. That is what detergents do and penetrants such as Kroil on a bronze brush.

The problem I see with patches laced with JB is they round sharp land edges and they don’t penetrate the groove and land junctions adequately.

When it comes to lapping a finish on a barrel, it should not be shiny smooth. The extensive use of JB can do this. If it is smooth it becomes a copper attractant just like the experiment of dragging plasticene over glass. On a rougher surface the plasticene won’t stick. So when lapping barrels in manufacture a much courser final finish grit is used. A typical 600-grit abrasive can produce a 6 to 10 microinch Ra finish. Old methods finished with 320 grit. Lapping won’t remove pits that can be caused by humidity but more often than not the electrolysis of dissimilar metals left in situ can be redeemable in some cases if not severe.

My process when using JB is to use it sparingly, to cast a lead lap which of course fills the grooves, tap it up and use JB mixed with Kroil. I posted pictures of this some time ago now. You can use the same lead lap over and over, even on the range by tapping it up.

Just to conclude, Gale MacMillan would void warranty on a barrel having been worked over with JB. He admitted he would only use it sparingly to on a lead lap. Good enough for me. Do what you can to get rid of the carbon by softening it because during the removal process it acts as an abrasive too.

BRETT B wrote:FWIW , I have tried probably every form of Carbon removing solvent over many years and the best one i have used for removing and softening up carbon is Helmar. You will still need an abrasive periodically but Helmar is great for loosening up Hard carbon is Saums .

Brett,

Is that H4000 Silicone Oil?

Azzopardi wrote:Wooo, steady up Keith, never said I was an expert and definitely not an Gunsmith; just like getting behind a gun, doesn’t makes you a shooter.

I used to be a right handed TR shooter in the 90’s and always employ Phil M. (still now) as my Gunsmith. While playing Rugby I split my right eye socket in half. 16 years later (2016) I started shooting again, left handed F-TR. Won the F-TR NQRA Queens in 2017 and the F-Open NRAA Champs in 2018.

Admit I’m still learning the new cleaning methods and everyone has different views. Just thought I add a post to see what I could learn about the new caliber I.e. not a 144gn out of a 308.

Whoa Azzo, I never suggested that YOU thought YOU were an expert with a borescope......but a lot of shooters do! The lathe & reamer comment was to highlight that there is more to using a borescope than just looking at a barrel. I know you can shoot & I know you use a great gunsmith, Phil & I are long time friends. But..........the fact remains the borescope did not save your barrel & it did not tell you that your cleaning methods were not getting the job done. Your post & the replies will help you & my comments were with that aim & will hopefully help you and others to not just look at the barrel, what you see must be analysed, that is the key.
Keith H.
Geriatric Gunsmith

AlanF wrote:

BRETT B wrote:FWIW , I have tried probably every form of Carbon removing solvent over many years and the best one i have used for removing and softening up carbon is Helmar. You will still need an abrasive periodically but Helmar is great for loosening up Hard carbon is Saums .

Brett,

Is that H4000 Silicone Oil?

No Alan its Helmar Carbon Remover, They also do a copper remover that works very well.

Their H7000 is for standard hunting rifles and the H7500 and H8000 is what I have been using in my Saums for nearly a year.

Link.. http://www.helmar.com.au/shop/firearm-c ... ufacturer/

Thanks Brett. Might give the H7500 a try. Hoppes is out of stock at the VRA, so time to try something else.

KHGS wrote:

Azzopardi wrote:Wooo, steady up Keith, never said I was an expert and definitely not an Gunsmith; just like getting behind a gun, doesn’t makes you a shooter.

I used to be a right handed TR shooter in the 90’s and always employ Phil M. (still now) as my Gunsmith. While playing Rugby I split my right eye socket in half. 16 years later (2016) I started shooting again, left handed F-TR. Won the F-TR NQRA Queens in 2017 and the F-Open NRAA Champs in 2018.

Admit I’m still learning the new cleaning methods and everyone has different views. Just thought I add a post to see what I could learn about the new caliber I.e. not a 144gn out of a 308.

Whoa Azzo, I never suggested that YOU thought YOU were an expert with a borescope......but a lot of shooters do! The lathe & reamer comment was to highlight that there is more to using a borescope than just looking at a barrel. I know you can shoot & I know you use a great gunsmith, Phil & I are long time friends. But..........the fact remains the borescope did not save your barrel & it did not tell you that your cleaning methods were not getting the job done. Your post & the replies will help you & my comments were with that aim & will hopefully help you and others to not just look at the barrel, what you see must be analysed, that is the key.
Keith H.
Geriatric Gunsmith

No problems and appreciate the feed back. Spoke to 4 people about their cleaning benchmark I.e. what picture do you see/discribe when the barrel is clean. All gave a similar answer. Then I asked them same question but, when your about to start a OPM or Queens, what’s clean/barrel ready look like. That’s when I got quite different views. What’s your different benchmarks?

Azzo- never met you mate but firstly congrats on the recent queens win!

The way I use my Lyman borescope now is I will put a heavy number of rounds on a gun 50-100 rounds. Then will check it out with the camera. From there I will do a solvent clean. I dry the barrel out and have a good look at the difference between dirty and solvent cleaned. Then will go at it with a JB or iosso clean. I would normally do this with a 284 around 70-80 rounds. Go real light to start with and patch it out and check it again to see if its clean. Stop when the scope shows you shiny steel. That’s all I use a borescope for. End of a day at an OPM 40-50 shots I wont clean with an abrasive, just solvent clean. But end of day 2 will give it a scrub. More and more shoots now allow blow offs at the start of a day so I wouldn’t worry doing an abrasive clean at the end of day 2 of a queens before the longs on day 3 if I could get half a dozen blow offs sorted in the morning. If no blow offs I would be a little more wary. Have been caught out at the end of shoots before just relying on solvents all the way through and finding a barrel fouls on the last range and ruins it all. Just my opinion. Barrels will be barrels. Ive only run one SAUM and it saw very little work before I moved away from FO shooting but have run 4 284 shehane barrels, a 260 improved and a dasher. The dasher was a great example- bore scoped it when dirty, thought it looked fine after 24 shots so I figured it could go 80 plus before cleaning. After 500 shots it was toast. Sure the throat had grown pushing 105gr bullets over 3000fps, but it fouled up horrible and I couldnt get anything to really work consistently as good as it did during the first few hundred. Brett has been a great mentor for a lot of guys over here in the West and has been through enough SAUMs to know what he is doing.

I still reckon get a new tube, and go from there. Good luck with it mate