OzFclass

I've been shooting SH (was VT for Varmint Tactical when I started...) for a few years now. I'm not interested in the other classes our club shoots (Target rifle/FTR/F Std/F Open), I joined up to practice for hunting as well as Precision Service Rifle. My club has more SH shooters than all other shooters put together, with a mix of guys running stock "factory" rifles (I use inverted commas because aren't all rifles made in factories of some sort?) up to full custom rifles (but they are still made in factories....) and AIs. Most of the shooters of the other classes also have SH rifles because it is fun and also because it requires a different skill set from the other classes. Rarely will a score of less than 50.5 win a day in SH (we score V bulls and supercentres as 0.1), but many days have been won with Lithgow LA105s and Tikka TAC A-1s.

I'm surprised that people on this forum suggest that if a rifle is over 6.5kgs it should be run in F Open. Maybe your clubs' F Open shooters could be beaten by someone with an SH rifle of 7.5kgs, but in our club you would have zero chance. F Open and SH are barely the same sport, requiring veryy different skill sets and equipment sets.

Yes, we want to attract new shooters and SH is doing this, but we also don't want to bore experienced shooters into seeking out alternative shooting sports (PRS comes to mind immediately) because we don't let shooters "express" themselves by playing with different gear. I get the reasoning behind the "factory" class, but is it really that much cheaper? New shooter buys a Howa, runs it for a year and decides it's not competitive or he wants to try something nicer, so sells it for $500 and buys a Sako at $3.5K. Runs that for a year or 2 and burns the barrel out, is now up for another $3.5K rifle less the $1.5K trade-in he gets on the old one, when he could have put a new barrel in for under $1K with a better chance of better accuracy.

Shooting is an accessory/tinkering sport and that keeps guys and girls interested. We need to keep existing shooters on board as well as attracting new shooters and the bullshit and bickering over rules is turning people away. We are struggling against the purists as it is who seem to want target rifle or nothing on the range, let's be inclusive of people who just want to shoot. Most of my mates now shoot PRS as well or instead because there is none of the bullshit.

Oh, and yes, I lug my 7.5kg AI around the hills hunting .

Just wondering what the minimum range is for SH is it still 300 yards because everybody's talking about all these rules and regulations while I really ever take a shot under 600 yards I know plenty of people around here that dog and stalk really ever take a shot over 80 yards .

Generally 300-900metres, some ranges might be more, which brings me to another point.
To get a 26" barrel .308 out to 900m will take some stiff loads, more than I'd be comfortable shooting a 6.5kg rifle with for enough details to finish a comp.

Unless of course the range allows brakes, which many people seem to be against....

Bucket wrote:Generally 300-900metres, some ranges might be more, which brings me to another point.
To get a 26" barrel .308 out to 900m will take some stiff loads, more than I'd be comfortable shooting a 6.5kg rifle with for enough details to finish a comp.

Unless of course the range allows brakes, which many people seem to be against....

46gr 2208 berger fullbores gets me 50s at 800m from a 26in barrel. I have not tried 900m

No problem getting to 1000 yds with a 26 inch barrel with 45 to 45.5 of 2206h Might kick a bit in a 6.5 kg rifle ( no suppressor ) 7.5 kg would not be much worse than an FTR rifle with 200+ gn projectiles.

46.2gr 2208 with 155.5 out a 24" works at 1000 for me. From memory ADI book max is 47gr

SH class rules just my take ....... KISS

Must be factory made and sold rifle no triggers no barrels the stock that the rifle comes in everything as is off the rack. no weight limit if you can buy it you can use it and as far as scopes if you must put a limit on it 30 seems a bit ridiculous as most manufacturers make a 8-32 .
I really don't see a problem with having a larger scope and Winding it back just as long as you know if you are sprung you are instantly disqualified .
Bipods yes as long as they are the clip on type like Harris Atlas magpul etc etc .
Rear bag yes but no rigid flat bottom section and no ears or monopod if you wish I don't have a problem with as they are a disadvantage as they allowed far too much lateral movement with breath and pulse.
Anyway even that looks like too many rules I think we should look at this from the perspective of somebody who's never been to a shooting club and coming to a event with what they would use in the field you've got to keep it simple you don't want future members thinking it's all to complicated then again I know it would be a bit of a headache but I still believe there should be a 100 200 yard component as I dare say a lot of people showing up to these events have probably never shot past 150-200 yards.

This is from the perspective of a non member hoping to become a member and I have no doubt that this will be picked two pieces from members that have been participating for many years and I do not want you to think I am having a go as that is not my intention.

Cheers

dazza284 wrote:SH class rules just my take ....... KISS

Must be factory made and sold rifle no triggers no barrels the stock that the rifle comes in everything as is off the rack. no weight limit if you can buy it you can use it and as far as scopes if you must put a limit on it 30 seems a bit ridiculous as most manufacturers make a 8-32 .
I really don't see a problem with having a larger scope and Winding it back just as long as you know if you are sprung you are instantly disqualified .
Bipods yes as long as they are the clip on type like Harris Atlas magpul etc etc .
Rear bag yes but no rigid flat bottom section and no ears or monopod if you wish I don't have a problem with as they are a disadvantage as they allowed far too much lateral movement with breath and pulse.
Anyway even that looks like too many rules I think we should look at this from the perspective of somebody who's never been to a shooting club and coming to a event with what they would use in the field you've got to keep it simple you don't want future members thinking it's all to complicated then again I know it would be a bit of a headache but I still believe there should be a 100 200 yard component as I dare say a lot of people showing up to these events have probably never shot past 150-200 yards.

This is from the perspective of a non member hoping to become a member and I have no doubt that this will be picked two pieces from members that have been participating for many years and I do not want you to think I am having a go as that is not my intention.

Cheers

This is pretty much the right idea. The issue with "factory" or "off the shelf" is always defining that; "factory made" and "off the rack" are two different things. And even drawing the line; a Tikka T3X Lite is factory, but so is a Tikka Tac A1 for example; same-same but completely different, one was designed to slap a deer, the other to slap a target. And to tell at a glance if a rifle has had a re-barrel isn't easy. Even stocks; I'm shooting a Remington 700 Custom Long Range. It's not a factory stock, it's a Form stock, but I bought that combo off the shelf from The Barn, and my local country gun shop has exactly the same one in stock. It's a rifle combo you can buy off the shelf, but does that make it not factory? It's a hard one to police and would be a nightmare to enforce. Not saying your idea is wrong by any means, I'd love to see a rock-stock-bog-arse-no-frills-standard-as-shit class work and succeed without cheating, but not sure it can be a reality.

Just for some clarity, the idea behind the 30x limit is that most scopes over that (even the 32x stuff) are designed for target shooting; it's grey where you draw the line with scopes because of 23.3 in the SSRs "... without the features or attachments that would place it in the style of a target, match or service rifle". A high-power competition scope is just that; a competition scope, for target or match shooting. Having a max power limit stops anyone throwing on a comp scope, winding it up to 55-60x when no one is looking, and backing it off again for the last shot before anyone notices. Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

Weairy wrote:

dazza284 wrote:SH class rules just my take ....... KISS

Must be factory made and sold rifle no triggers no barrels the stock that the rifle comes in everything as is off the rack. no weight limit if you can buy it you can use it and as far as scopes if you must put a limit on it 30 seems a bit ridiculous as most manufacturers make a 8-32 .
I really don't see a problem with having a larger scope and Winding it back just as long as you know if you are sprung you are instantly disqualified .
Bipods yes as long as they are the clip on type like Harris Atlas magpul etc etc .
Rear bag yes but no rigid flat bottom section and no ears or monopod if you wish I don't have a problem with as they are a disadvantage as they allowed far too much lateral movement with breath and pulse.
Anyway even that looks like too many rules I think we should look at this from the perspective of somebody who's never been to a shooting club and coming to a event with what they would use in the field you've got to keep it simple you don't want future members thinking it's all to complicated then again I know it would be a bit of a headache but I still believe there should be a 100 200 yard component as I dare say a lot of people showing up to these events have probably never shot past 150-200 yards.

This is from the perspective of a non member hoping to become a member and I have no doubt that this will be picked two pieces from members that have been participating for many years and I do not want you to think I am having a go as that is not my intention.

Cheers

This is pretty much the right idea. The issue with "factory" or "off the shelf" is always defining that; "factory made" and "off the rack" are two different things. And even drawing the line; a Tikka T3X Lite is factory, but so is a Tikka Tac A1 for example; same-same but completely different, one was designed to slap a deer, the other to slap a target. And to tell at a glance if a rifle has had a re-barrel isn't easy. Even stocks; I'm shooting a Remington 700 Custom Long Range. It's not a factory stock, it's a Form stock, but I bought that combo off the shelf from The Barn, and my local country gun shop has exactly the same one in stock. It's a rifle combo you can buy off the shelf, but does that make it not factory? It's a hard one to police and would be a nightmare to enforce. Not saying your idea is wrong by any means, I'd love to see a rock-stock-bog-arse-no-frills-standard-as-shit class work and succeed without cheating, but not sure it can be a reality.

Just for some clarity, the idea behind the 30x limit is that most scopes over that (even the 32x stuff) are designed for target shooting; it's grey where you draw the line with scopes because of 23.3 in the SSRs "... without the features or attachments that would place it in the style of a target, match or service rifle". A high-power competition scope is just that; a competition scope, for target or match shooting. Having a max power limit stops anyone throwing on a comp scope, winding it up to 55-60x when no one is looking, and backing it off again for the last shot before anyone notices. Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

Yes I completely understand your comments I should have thought a little more about it technically speaking my over-the-counter or factory-built rule would nagate a Howa as they all come in a box as a barreled action and no stock yes it is all starting to get a bit grey .

Hi All,
Just my situation, maybe others.
Body mechanicals falling to bits, struggling with 9+ kg rifles lifting into back of Ute, plus stands and bags.
Would like to keep shooting, friendships made, and I like the sport.
Looking at S/H discipline, 6.5 kg, no front stand.
Can a purchased rifle, off the shelf, have a barrel fitted still 26" but a 1:7 or 1:8 twist?
Cheers
Phil

Weairy wrote:
Just for some clarity, the idea behind the 30x limit is that most scopes over that (even the 32x stuff) are designed for target shooting; it's grey where you draw the line with scopes because of 23.3 in the SSRs "... without the features or attachments that would place it in the style of a target, match or service rifle". A high-power competition scope is just that; a competition scope, for target or match shooting. Having a max power limit stops anyone throwing on a comp scope, winding it up to 55-60x when no one is looking, and backing it off again for the last shot before anyone notices. Prevention is better than cure, as they say.

OK, I understand where you are trying to go with this .... but..... isn't this all a bit silly.

You are trying to compete in a sport that shoots at targets and a rifle is going to be OK to use as long as none of the components are designed to shoot at targets. WTF!

Ridiculously difficult to police, because shooters are naturally competitive and will be looking for competitive components that give them a perceived advantage and no RO is trained or qualified to tell the difference.

Limiting the cartridges and projectiles that can be used would be much easier to police.
Soft nose hunting bullets perhaps?

Pete

This is all very silly. Too many rules already, but i bought a factory tikka and it shoots fine, only 5kg with a scope

PeteFox wrote:

Weairy wrote:
Limiting the cartridges and projectiles that can be used would be much easier to police.
Soft nose hunting bullets perhaps?

Pete

Limiting cartridges is still extremely hard to police. Can you easily tell the difference between a 223 and a 223AI or 308 and 308AI at a glance, or projectile weights etc etc etc. The list is endless on policing that one. Something like that would cook the poor ROs.

I've tossed this over in my head about 40000 times and it's still not easy to fix the rules. It all depends; are you trying to make this "F-Class with less-suited guns" or "Simulated Hunting" style shooting? That would dictate where you start drawing the line with scopes, bags, bipods, even things like mats and clothing come into play.

The idea of the scope was that it's pretty easy to police (black and white; it's in spec or it isn't) and it helps build the border between that and F-Class rifles. I personally was arguing for a 24x limit, which cuts out most of your high-end Nightforce, March & Vortex Scopes and is more realistic on a hunting rifle. Mainly to help rein in the budget of the class a bit.

This class was designed as a "grass roots" class, to get people in the door. What I'm seeing is a lot of high-end shooters are dropping back into the class, for fun or budget reasons, which is perfectly fine, but they've obviously got an advantage. Heck, I'm about to sell my SEB and my Barnard is in pieces at the moment, I'm going to S/H as my only class after 5 years of F-Class. Is it fair that I now sell the Barnard, buy a high-end action like a Borden, take my NF Comp off the Barnard and drop it on, then use all the knowledge accumulated in F-Std and F-Open to build an F-Open grade rifle with a muzzle brake on it, and compete against the new guy with his $1500 standard Howa package? Probably not, but the potential is there. Is that person with the $1500 rifle then going to say "Well, this is shit, I have to spend thousands to even be in the mix"? Possibly. But how do you stop that from happening?

Personally, I've got two rifles that qualify with the rules as they sit. One is a rebarreled REM700 223 with an MDT chassis and a $500 Vortex scope, sitting bang on 6.5kg. The other is a rebarreled Rem700 308 in a Form timber stock (as it came off the shelf) with a brake and a Nightforce NXS 32x, at 6.2kg. These are what I'd class as "higher end" standard rifles. They're a run-of-the-mill action with half-way decent Hardy barrels and scopes on them, in standard bog-arse no-frills calibres. These were put together "in the spirit" of the class (the 223 is my PSR rifle).

I still think either a grade system or a class split as "Standard" and "Open" would be about the best you'll do, with some simple rule adjustments. WA had the right idea with their Lithgow Cup in my opinion; SAAMI approved cartridges/commercially available calibres.
- Keep Standard Class as a 6.5kg limit, limited to "commercial" calibres (223, 308, 6.5 Creed, 243; stuff you can walk into any gun shop and buy a packet of ammo or a rifle). Maybe a scope restriction. Free stocks, free barrels, free triggers to 1kg minimum pull weight (lets be honest, most factory triggers are shite)
- Make Open class really an open class; a weight that'd open it up to PRS style rifles & heavier factory rifles (AIs for instance) at circa 8kg, free calibres, free scopes, free additional chassis weights etc.
- Go back to standard squeeze bags instead of eared bags across the board.
- No plates/boards under the bipod or rear bag.
- Make stocks a free item in the SSRs so it stops becoming an issue with chassis' and other stocks.

Sorry to write a novel, but just my latest thoughts. I have zero impact on the rules changing.

bolster55 wrote:Hi All,
Just my situation, maybe others.
Body mechanicals falling to bits, struggling with 9+ kg rifles lifting into back of Ute, plus stands and bags.
Would like to keep shooting, friendships made, and I like the sport.
Looking at S/H discipline, 6.5 kg, no front stand.
Can a purchased rifle, off the shelf, have a barrel fitted still 26" but a 1:7 or 1:8 twist?
Cheers
Phil

From a rules point of view Phil, definitely. You can rebarrel the rifle however you please, up to heavy varmint profile. At 26", fluted Varmint profile are what we're using, which sneaks in under weight in both the chassis and timber stocks.

One of the things wrong with rules is the sport ends up getting tied in knots trying to define them and then police things.

I think the least amount possible of both is a good thing.
I also think that we (NRAA) shouldn't be going it alone otherwise we'll end up with an F-Std type debacle with no-one to shoot against.

The NZNRA has already written what seem to me to be a simple set of rules defining 2 classes much like what is trying to be achieved here.

F-PR (F class practical rifle) here >> https://www.nranz.com/assets/Rules/2020 ... s-F-PR.pdf

Sporter-hunter here>> https://www.nranz.com/assets/Documents/ ... -Class.pdf

Pete