OzFclass

IanP wrote:Norm, where did you buy your pin adjustable Barrett rings from?

Ian

Ian, PM sent.

Barry Davies wrote:My take on Muzzle brakes --
If the recoil is causing you problems ( without a brake ) don't fire it.

I have some rifles with brakes and they are not all there because of recoil, its more about seeing your impact (not applicable to paper targets) and quicker follow up shots (not applicable f class) so they don't tend to bother me.

I agree with Alan, there are lots of people out there with brakes (for what ever reason) and if we cant find a way to tap that market we are missing out of a lot of potential members. If it means we have to have a session run an earlier or later session to cater for them so be it.

DenisA wrote:I have been to a couple of shoots with Daryl at Belmont when he was trialling the 230's. I can't quote the exact figure as I don't specifically remember but I was very surprised at how close his MV was to mine considering the cartridge difference. Honestly I didn't believe his results until he showed me his test targets and chrono results.

We had a couple of conversations regarding brass life and why I don't take full advantage of the wsm and beef up the MV.

Denis, I have wondered what the upper limit was for the 300WSM and the 230gr Bergers. Would you be willing to share what you have found?

I know that for a lot of my loads, (right across many calibres) my best velocity SDs were most often up near max loads. I am curious if your lighter load may have larger SDs than something closer to the limit.

Ian

Seddo,
Your reply is irrelevant to what this discussion is about --paper targets. I, least of all care less about what people do in the field.
If anyone wants to run a session at some other time to appease those with brakes do so by all means, but for PM's etc brakes are out.
Some of the cannons in use currently are definitely border line. With a brake they cross that border.

IanP wrote:

DenisA wrote:I have been to a couple of shoots with Daryl at Belmont when he was trialling the 230's. I can't quote the exact figure as I don't specifically remember but I was very surprised at how close his MV was to mine considering the cartridge difference. Honestly I didn't believe his results until he showed me his test targets and chrono results.

We had a couple of conversations regarding brass life and why I don't take full advantage of the wsm and beef up the MV.

Denis, I have wondered what the upper limit was for the 300WSM and the 230gr Bergers. Would you be willing to share what you have found?

I know that for a lot of my loads, (right across many calibres) my best velocity SDs were most often up near max loads. I am curious if your lighter load may have larger SDs than something closer to the limit.

Ian

Ian, I'm a pretty embarrassed and a little humbled but happy at the same time to to be learning. As I prevoiusly said, I appreciate your (and other members) advice immensly..

Let me start by saying that in my load testing experience up until this point I had never calculated or made consideration to SD as I have felt that I was not at that level yet. I'd load tested selecting the tightest group and moving onto the next stage of LT'ing. I chronied loads to identify MV only and was happy to see lower ES but considered it no further.
After this excercise, SD is easy to work out and easy to understand now that I've worked it out for myself.
The previou load test results are not good enough for proper SD consideration (from what I understand) as they were only 6 shot groups, but the writings on the wall.

230g Hybs - grouped <.4moa@100m. Ave MV 2745 fps. SD=84 ES=30. Poor vert at the longs.
215g Hybs - grouped <.4moa@100m. Ave MV, 2840 fps. SD=11.5 ES=9. Great vert at the longs.

The 215g Hybs are only in the first stage of LT'ing. I still need to fine tune powder charge by .1g+/- and tune seating depth.
I did shoot them at the longs though with this premature load.

Thanks for shoving me in the right direction.

.......AWKWARD!

Sorry for deviating on the thread.

Denis, glad you have found that SDs correspond to your vertical for the 230gr hybrids. Going with tightest groups at 100yd/m generally indicates best SD so nothing wrong with what your doing!

I also checked SDs for new 300WM cases and for once fired cases, with new cases and fire forming at match loads the groups would open up. I found new cases SD = 28 and once fired SD = 5 for the load I used shooting the 0.171" group.

Interestingly my 308W Palma brass had almost identical SDs for new and once fired brass. Its different for different cases/chambers but group size and SDs will tell you how your load development is going! There is a lot to this sport and it takes quite a while to gain a good understanding of whats going on. I like the technical stuff just as much as shooting and I hope to never stop learning more.

Ian

Tim. Have you looked into the 300 Dakota. It is midway between the WSM and RUM. How about a 30/375 Ruger?
As for muzzle breaks, yep I agree, they are NOT for F Class COMPETITION, BUT I would like it if clubs let shooters use them at club shoots, whether they are separated by distance or plywood baffles. We get quite a few people getting turned away from firing a shot at our club when they turn up to have a go with their braked hunting, tactical or benchrest rifles.

Had a look at the other cartridges mentioned, the 300WM looks like the one for now.
No sizing or fireforming, is there any real issue with a belted case in regard to accuracy?
Would any brand of brass be preferable?

Tim , there is no issue with " belted magnums"
Noslier custom brass is great. It is match preped and comes weight sorted.
Just load and shoot.
Paul

Tim N wrote:Had a look at the other cartridges mentioned, the 300WM looks like the one for now.
No sizing or fireforming, is there any real issue with a belted case in regard to accuracy?
Would any brand of brass be preferable?

Like Paul says, Nosler is fantastic and needs no prep and Norma is just as good but needs some prep. Norma manufactures the Nosler cases so they are pretty much identical except the Nosler comes factory prepped/sorted.

No issue with with belted case as the 300WM cases are exceptionally strong and dont suffer from head expansion even when shooting the 230gr Hybrids. Head space the cases off the shoulder from once fired brass and set shoulder back the standard 0.001" to 0.002".

Shooting the 300WM with the 230gr Hybrids is addictive, it just shoots really well and with a very wide accuracy node.

Ian

I just saw this article about Bryan and his new FTR rifle shooting 215gn Hybrids. It reminded me of this old thread because in it, I was contemplating the idea of whether a 9T barrel would be well suited to 230gn Hybs.

Although there's a speed difference between a 300wsm and a .308, I think its really interesting to see that Bryan, the Berger ballistician is using a 9T barrel for 215's.

Its also interesting to hear his sentiments on heavier bullet weight and the increase in importance of technique...... so to speak.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... ilt-rifle/

Just curious.

In shooting the 200, 215 and 230 Hybrids from a short mag using a 1 in 10 twist 30" barrel I have found loads for each that are extremely accurate out to 500 meters. After that the groups seem to be "looser" with the Hybrids as compared to the VLD's designs. I have talked to Bryan L about this with no solution being offered but was interested to read about his recent rifle and the 1 in 9 twist barrel. Have any of you seen this phenomena for the bullets getting less accurate as these slow down and go out to the 700 to 900 meter ranges?

For now I have given up on the Hybrids for long range match shooting in the short mags.

Thanks for any info you share?

IanP wrote:

Tim N wrote:Had a look at the other cartridges mentioned, the 300WM looks like the one for now.
No sizing or fireforming, is there any real issue with a belted case in regard to accuracy?
Would any brand of brass be preferable?

Like Paul says, Nosler is fantastic and needs no prep and Norma is just as good but needs some prep. Norma manufactures the Nosler cases so they are pretty much identical except the Nosler comes factory prepped/sorted.

No issue with with belted case as the 300WM cases are exceptionally strong and dont suffer from head expansion even when shooting the 230gr Hybrids. Head space the cases off the shoulder from once fired brass and set shoulder back the standard 0.001" to 0.002".


Ian, where did you get your info that Norma makes Nozler? I ask as I have a batch of Nozler 30/06 cases & a batch of Norma 30/06 cases & the Nozler cases do not look anything like the Norma cases, they are a different colour, they are much thicker & average 20 grains heavier than the Norma cases I have???? Lapua look different again these are also a different colour & are 10 grains heavier than the Norma cases I have?? I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a massive difference between them.
Keith H

barney wrote:Just curious.

In shooting the 200, 215 and 230 Hybrids from a short mag using a 1 in 10 twist 30" barrel I have found loads for each that are extremely accurate out to 500 meters. After that the groups seem to be "looser" with the Hybrids as compared to the VLD's designs. I have talked to Bryan L about this with no solution being offered but was interested to read about his recent rifle and the 1 in 9 twist barrel. Have any of you seen this phenomena for the bullets getting less accurate as these slow down and go out to the 700 to 900 meter ranges?

For now I have given up on the Hybrids for long range match shooting in the short mags.

Thanks for any info you share?

Yes when the twist rate is marginal this will occur & is more likely to happen with very long (high BC) bullets for their diameter as they slow down. Some 10" twist barrels are not 10" twist.
Keith H.

barney wrote:Just curious.

In shooting the 200, 215 and 230 Hybrids from a short mag using a 1 in 10 twist 30" barrel I have found loads for each that are extremely accurate out to 500 meters. After that the groups seem to be "looser" with the Hybrids as compared to the VLD's designs. I have talked to Bryan L about this with no solution being offered but was interested to read about his recent rifle and the 1 in 9 twist barrel. Have any of you seen this phenomena for the bullets getting less accurate as these slow down and go out to the 700 to 900 meter ranges?

For now I have given up on the Hybrids for long range match shooting in the short mags.

Thanks for any info you share?

G'day Barney - is there any difference in the velocity spreads between the projectiles??