OzFclass

I had sworn off Sweets a couple years ago, until Phil Jones (Redback Precision Equipment), my gunsmith and benchrest "Hall of Fame"er showed me how he does it, when he helped me set up my new 284 Win about 6 months ago.
I was a die hard proponent of Boretech Eliminator till Phil showed me how he uses Sweets, and I havent touched anything else for 6 months.....if it aint broke, dont try to fix it !!
Phils system is simple, quick, easy, and very very effective
Two wet patches of Sweets.
8 or 10 scrubs with Sweets on a good nylon brush (the Iosso blue ones are perfect). Leave for 5 mins.
Scrub well (up and back once for each shot fired) with Sweets on a Bronze brush.
Wash the Sweets out with Shellite or metho on wet patches.
Clean and dry the chamber.........shoot it.
The only "trick" is that the barrel must be cold....which is why Phil and others take ice and a wet towel with them to BR comps.

Just got my first "switch barrel" to partner with the 284 Win barrel in my BAT/McMillan/March F Open rifle and have just completed a slow and careful break in procedure. Its a Broughton 5C , 1 in 8 twist , chambered again in that bloody beautiful thing called a 6 x 47 Lapua.
I had a very accurate, but very dirty Krieger that died fatally at 1150 rounds, on day one, range one of the last Brisbane Queens.
Wet weather for a week was the perfect opportunity to get a lot of reloading work done, inc neck turning a heap of new cases in different calibres, and then breaking in my "new girl".

Anyway........I thought it might be fun to do a serious comparison"test" of all of the Solvents that I have got sitting on the shelf, and havent used since Phil demo'd his Sweets method.
Just like the first, shot out barrel, for fireforming new brass, I loaded 105 gr Berger Hybrids and 38 gr of AR2209, and changed to CCI450 primers as per previous posts.
I am fortunate to have a Gradient Lens Borescope, and this is the first "canted lands" barrel that I had ever looked in. Finish seems quite coarse compared to a Krieger match barrel, or my 284 Maddco Match barrel........the Broughton doesnt have the "nearly mirror finish" of the other two that I have owned. Weird getting used to these flat looking angled lands when i have only known conventional, sharp shouldered lands ! But, these Broughtons are apparently doing very well in the US in both BR and long range shooting and Phil Jones totally recommended it to me. Time to break it in.

1 x shot and clean.......tried Hoppes Benchrest.........virtually bloody useless. Lots of wet/dry/wet/dry.....nylon brush....more wet dry....lots of copper still visible in borescope.. bronze brush, wet/dry etc.....bugger it, Sweets al la Jones....quick, total clean.
1 x shot and clean. Sweets ah la Jones......quick, easy, perfectly clean
1 x shot and clean.....Butch's Bore Shine this time........just like Hoppes Benchrest....virtually bloody useless !! After many patches of wet dry wet dry, nylon brush and scrub, more wet dry etc etc, bronze brush. Checking the whole way with the borescope........ eventually used JB Paste and gave it a good scrub, and got it totally clean.
1 shot and clean ....Sweets again. Quick, easy and perfectly clean.
2 shots and clean .......tried Aubreys "Froglube" Solvent.......same result as the Hoppes Benchrest and Butch's Boreshine...........lots of patches used wet/dry/wet/dry etc, scrub with nylon brus, wet dry/wet/dry etc. Give up and do it quickly and easily with Sweets
2 shots and clean.........Sweets....quick, easy, totally clean.
2 shots and clean........Boretech Eliminator this time.......certainly a clear Second Place getter for me......not as good, quick and effective as Sweets, but a long way in front of everything else that I have tried here.
3 shots and clean.... Shooters Choice this time.......lots of work, but not much result. Went thru the whole procedure, and still a lot of copper left. Take the easy way out again....Sweets and its a quick, easy total clean.
Then a couple of 5 shot groups, and ended the day on dark shooting at 300 yards. with great results.
One other thing I did try was "seasoning" the barrel with Aubrey Sonnenbergs "Froglube" CLP after each clean. Its a totally biological product that smells like a Sports Rub, but has apparently proven itself in the Middle east with US troops as a barrel treatment/conditioner.
I just patched it "on", (its like a soft wax) then patched it "out/off" straight away and went back to shooting.
My first shot was right in the "group" each time. In fact, I shot one group today at 100 yds, that included 4 x separate cleanings (3 and clean x 3, plus 1) and the 10 shots went in 0.8". Given that I am no benchrester, and that this was a brand new barrel being broken in, (shots 13-22) and fireforming a necked down, neck turned case (basically a wildcat) as we went, i was pretty happy with that.
I will try and post some photos tomorrow, but i finished the day shooting at 300 yards and thrilled with the accuracy displayed. The barrel is now formally declared to be "broken in", and ready for F Class Open club days while i get the brass fireformed. Then it will be my go-to gun for 300 & 400 yards. The 284 Win can shoot everything from 500 yds and out.
Look up "Froglube" on Google and watch a couple of short videos.......I think Aubrey might be onto something with it, especially the CLP as a barrel treatment/seasoner. I have been having trouble for a long while with my 1 or 2 sighters being way low and left, but i might have found the cure i think. I am shooting OK at present, but I honestly cannot remember tha last time I kept two sighters. This Froglube CLP can hopefully change that for good.
Tony

tony,
when i did an experiment running in with a borescope and comparing different solvents,the only thing that came close to what you described was the k g products system.
that is, use k g 1, k g 2 and k g 12. this quickly removed all copper and carbon.
your second choice would also be my second choice.
one thing to look out for with sweets is carbon. it shows as black streaks, and at its worst is far more detrimental than copper. it can turn ceramic.
keep safe,
bruce.

I spoke to a mechanic last weekend who swore by spray carburettor cleaner for removing carbon from his barrels......

any comments ?

andrew

i gave carby cleaner a spray on a patch over the weekend as it was sitting on the bench and i was curious. It pulled a lot of carbon out of the barrel, the dry pathce after it did have much carbon on them at all. I think a few goes and it could have pulled it all out.

Anyone with a borescope tried it?

AC Delco combustion chamber cleaner pt. no.88900161 on a bronze brush does an excellent job.
Regards Malcolm.

ecomeat wrote:Froglube Solvent.......same result as the Hoppes Benchrest and Butch's Boreshine.

One other thing I did try was "seasoning" the barrel with "Froglube" CLP after each clean. Its a totally biological product that smells like a Sports Rub, but has apparently proven itself in the Middle east with US troops as a barrel treatment/conditioner. I just patched it "on", (its like a soft wax) then patched it "out/off" straight away and went back to shooting.

Look up "Froglube" on Google and watch a couple of short videos.......I think Aubrey might be onto something with it, especially the CLP as a barrel treatment/seasoner. I have been having trouble for a long while with my 1 or 2 sighters being way low and left, but i might have found the cure i think. This Froglube CLP can hopefully change that for good.
Tony

Tony thanks for the excellent feedback. I agree with you regarding pure copper removal capabilities - FrogLube Solvent is not designed to work the same way as Sweets etc. I think the word "solvent" can mean a few things and "copper solvent" is more specific to a Sweets/Boretech type product.

There are some articles and info directly from the manufacturers here: http://froglubeaustralia.com/blogs/news
http://froglubeaustralia.com/pages/links-and-articles

My particular interest is copper regulation vs copper removal (and then having to re-foul).

My personal experience is:
Clean and condition the barrel as per instructions (yes, read the instructions!)
After firing, clean with FL Solvent and FL paste or liquid - this will take out the carbon and regulate the copper (not entirely remove it)
Wipe excess out of bore
Go shoot

I normally need a few shots to find the centre of my group - so far with FL I'm right into the expected group on first shot, and no variation in elevation thereafter. YMMV.

Thanks for adding to the feedback - its all very valuable.

PS - FL is also good for lubing cases!

PPS - Forgot to stress this - FrogLube is totally harmless, non-petroleum, non-toxic, food-grade product. It really is green.

Go to repco or auto pro or where ever you get auto products and look for a product called nulon foaming air intake cleaner. Small black can. Spray it down the bore, leave it sit for 15 mins, go to work with a very stiff nylon brush- iosso or kleen bore ones are good- keep wetting the brush with fresh foam from the can. Leave it for another 15 mins. Wet patch it out, then use spray brake cleaner to neutralise it. I then follow with a few wet patches of tetral oil- the milky stuff- in the chamber and down the bore, then dry the chamber and store muzzle down.

I found this nulon stuff attacks copper as well as getting into carbon. Going to buy a can of subaru upper engine cleaner next as that stuff is supposed to be awesome. OMC top engine cleaner is supposed to be good too- all similar to the old GM upper engine cleaner.

Im on the lookout for something that will get into the caked on ceramic carbon in the throat as an alternative to iosso paste. While iosso works to get the barrel back to bare steel- I would like to see if something else non abrasive will do it. Made a batch of Eds Red- look on the net for the forumula- but didnt see anything spectacular. Pro Shot carbon solvent has been very good at removing copper and wont etch a stainless barrel like ammonia based cleaners are supposed to do. And if you use enough of it on a nylon brush it will foam up a bit and do a semi decent job at attacking carbon as well. Boretech eliminator is good but $50 for a large bottle and thats bloody expensive. Plus it shows false copper on regular jags anyway.

The other thing is I wont take a bronze brush anywhere near my rifle barrels. I know some are happy to, but when you pay all that money for a custom match grade barrel that is smooth inside, I wouldnt want to be scratching it up with a brush. So stiff nylon for me- I dont have any issue pushing a nylon through and back into the muzzle as nylon isnt going to damage a crown. Ive only got access to pro shot brushes (useless soft pieces of crap) at the moment for my 6.5 so Im running a 7mm brush in the 6.5mm bore and its still not working that well. Need to do a trip to perth and get some more kleenbore brushes.

Hoppes #9 is useless. It used to be real good but they must have changed the ingredients. Used to be able to wet patch a barrel, leave it for a few days then patch out and it would be clean. I did that with my fox rifle up until the other day then when it was shooting shotgun patterns i borescoped it and found pits in the barrel. Poured the remaining hoppes onto the weeds behind the shed and threw the bottle out. Now up for a new barrel for that rifle

ecomeat wrote: I had a very accurate, but very dirty Krieger that died fatally at 1150 rounds, on day one, range one of the last Brisbane Queens.

I'm guessing you cleaned with Sweets because this barrel was a copper fouler?

give "pro shot" solvent a go! love it. wet a bronze brush and scrub back and forth then patch out the carbon. do that until you don't see any black streaks on the patch, only blue. swap to a nylon brush (to avoid false positive) scrub the bore let it soak for 15min and patch out. repeat with nylon brush/ patch out until there is no blue. it shouldn't take many repetitions but you can leave it in a long time and it doesn't do any harm.

is very unusual for a solvent. has very little smell and it dissolves in water. i almost laughed when they told me it eats copper but dissolves in water but now i find its very user friendly.

everyone has their own method but I've found this is ONE product that actually gets BOTH carbon and copper out.

I'm pretty pleased with Pro Shot myself, though I do use Subaru upper engine cleaner to control carbon during a day's shoot.

some including myself often see carbon solvents remove copper.
the question is whether the copper itself is removed by the solvent, or comes away with carbon that is removed from underneath it.
bruce.

Back in the days of our youth, when ADI ammo was replete with nasty fillers, we found that a 50/50 mix of Sweet's oil & Penetrine worked quite well on both carbon & metallic fouling. Of course, in those days, we knew no that there were the two to contend with. The only problem as we saw it was the gildy stuff & powder brushed out anyway.

Triplejim wrote:

ecomeat wrote: I had a very accurate, but very dirty Krieger that died fatally at 1150 rounds, on day one, range one of the last Brisbane Queens.

I'm guessing you cleaned with Sweets because this barrel was a copper fouler?

James,
Actually this "dirty Krieger" was the barrel that put me off Pro Shot Copper Solvent and then off Sweets.
I carefully broke it in (or so I thought)....1 & clean x 3, 2 & clean x 3, 3 and clean x 3 etc. I guess this was the first barrel for many years that I had broken in myself, brand new. I used the Pro Shot religiously, no mad rush.....just kept wet/dry/wet/dry.....nylon scrub...wet/dry/wet/dry etc till no visible copper on patches. Then fire the next shot or sequence.
I left it perfectly clean .....i thought ..... and went overseas for 3 weeks, returning with my Hawkeye Borescope that i collected as I came thru the USA.
All excited i looked down my Krieger chambered in 6 x 47 Lapua and bloody near died. It was filthy inside, but the Pro Shot had showed nothing (relying on blue/green patches).
So i tried Sweets.......a hell of a lot of work with it, and still not clean.
I eventually got it back to bare metal with about 3 lots of JB Paste followed by JB Boreshine.
Then I discovered Boretech Eliminator (still $40 at the QRA Store at Belmont, i think) and used it exclusively for the next 1100+ shots till the barrel died.
I used it exactly as per the instructions, and the worst I ever had was having to do it twice.
To be fair to the Sweets, when I "sacked it", i was following some BS advice i read on the internet somewhere (you know the internet is always correct, right ??!!??) and using it (Sweets) on a warmish barrel coz i had read that it works "best" in that scenario.
As Phil Jones pointed out to me after that barrel died, being Ammonia based, Sweets scientifically CANT WORK IN A HOT /WARM BARREL because the heat evaporates the ammonia and you are wasting your time. In hindsight, it makes all the sense in the world to me.

I now know that some of these Benchresters actually take iced water and a towel to their shoots, so that than can cool a barrel off quickly......then clean with an ammonia based solvent , then shoot again.
As I said earlier, i had personally sacked Sweets and managed to convert a few to my new found Boretech Eliminator, but then the simple method with Sweets that Phil Jones showed me in so easy and simple in my barrels that I am going to stay with it. It just plain works for me
I have still got some Pro Shot in a cupboard somewhere , so will dig it out and try it again asap.
Without a borescope though, it is just so much harder to really know what the inside of a barrel looks like. It is something that I use now every single time that I clean, without exception.
But isnt it amazing : BATattack and JohnK use Pro Shot as their first choice solvent, yet i felt that it had failed me badly, and so I sacked it. Life would probably get pretty boring if all barrels were the same.
Tony

eco i think it may have been the way you were using the pro shot. now with your new method you say you apply sweets direct to a bronze brush and give it a scrub and you only used a nylon when you tryed the pro shot? do the same thing with pro shot then follow up with a nylon so you dont get a false positive.

when im using the bronze brush to get the carbon out i just scrub it and patch it straight out. when i use the nylon for the copper i leave it soak for 15min to 1hr. i usually nutralise it with penatrene

BATattack,
Yes, I definitely will try the ProShot again asap and give it a good fair trial. Stuart and Annie Elliott from BRT are good mates of mine, and they sell a LOT of the ProShot copper solvent, so clearly it works satisfactorily for plenty of shooters.
i will definitely revisit it, and treat it exactly the same as Sweets and see what happens.
i will try and do a couple of 10-15 shot ladders at 500 yds tomorrow and then use ProShot.
Tony