Shooting without looking though scope.

[John23]

Gday

I am a new F open shooter and have been enjoying the game very much.

Being new to this style shooting reading the flags is a real challenge and the biggest thing that has cost me points is missing changes when looking though the scope and taking my shot.

I use a Caldwell joystick rest with Seb bag and protekor bumble bee rear bag. This has proven to be a solid foundation.

Yesterday the wind was quite strong and changing directions.
I saw top shooters miss calls and drop points.
After some evaluation of this I made a decision to not look though my scope when shooting and trust the stability of my rest.

I held the amount of windage that I felt was necessary for the average speed of wind and then looked over the top of my rifle and waited until the conditions were to my satisfaction and took each shot watching the flags and not the target.

This seems to work very effectively and I did not miss any calls that day and shoot a score that I felt was good comparing to the scores of the much better shooters.



Based on that I thought I would ask if other fclass shooters are doing this and if it is a effective way of shooting or if it has its downsides?

I assume this would not be good on still days when mirage can be seen?

If this is a technique used are there any tips on how to maximise the most out of it?

Thanks and look forward to finding out if Im onto something or just insane.

JH

[IanP]

Interesting question!!!!

I dont shoot the way that you are experimenting with but I can see the advantage of watching the flags and pulling the trigger at the same time. If you could do this successfully it would prove to be a great method for shooting in constantly changing conditions.

I think it may be applicable in f-class to shooting low recoil calibres using free recoil techniques. As soon as you put some shoulder input into the butt of the rifle you need to look through the scope to set the target dot, (or whatever reticle you use) in the centre of the X ring.

I'm pretty sure in some classes of BR this technique you used is pretty commonly used as well. As you say you really need a stable front rest and rear bag to make it work.

What calibre rifle are you shooting? Do you shoot free recoil?

If you find it works consistently for you then I would say keep using it as it overcomes the problem of putting your head down and taking aim while you release the trigger. Head down, aiming can, (and does) mean you can miss a wind change. Head up watching the wind while releasing the trigger would be a big advantage. Look forward to hearing if you can continue to make it work and still drill the X ring when needed.

Ian

[AlanF]

...Based on that I thought I would ask if other fclass shooters are doing this and if it is a effective way of shooting or if it has its downsides?...

John,

This technique is used commonly in BR, particularly in heavy gun, where everything is ultra stable, shots are fired every 2 or 3 seconds, and 2oz triggers are common. As you said you miss out on mirage, so it would handicap you in light conditions when mirage is at its most useful. But the general idea is good - when wind direction and speed are changing quickly, you will definitely get caught more if your last look at the conditions happens well before you squeeze off the shot. This is one of the main handicaps for TR shooters, although the top shooters usually have a very compact position that enables them to take a late last glance at both mirage and flags. Another possible disadvantage of your method is that even if your hold is perfectly steady, the sight picture can change as the conditions change, and actually move your cross-hair off its aiming point, particularly at long range. So you could find that if you're waiting for the return of a condition, when it returns you might be aiming into the 5 ring (but of course you won't know that ). I think a good compromise would be to check your aim every few seconds.

Alan

[RAVEN]

If you keep both eyes open one on the flags and one on the crosshair usually works in some conditions it depends on wind angle and your location along a mound. Best to have a few techniques up your sleeve and adapt to whatever the conditions call for.

[DannyS]

Maybe you had good luck on the day, bugger, why didnt someone tell me of this techinque. No need for a scope.

[DenisA]

G'day John,

As said, its done regularly in BR where the butt doesn't have to be contacting the shoulder, where free coiling is allowed. In F-class, the rules say that the butt has to be shouldered. According to the ICFRA full bore rules, where something is not specifically mentioned under a certain discipline, standard ICFRA full bore T/R rules apply.

Conduct of shooting T6.3
"The butt plate of the rifle must be placed against the shoulder or upper arm and all parts of"

To my understanding, that means that legally, free-coiling in F-class is illegal............................

Even the lightest shoulder pressure can cause the crosshair to shift.

Its probably do-able as you've seen, but consistantly reliable to shoot less than .5moa (ultimate goal) may well be another story.

[Norm]

I'm with RAVEN on this. I go through a process of watching all the flags, trees, grass, other shooters markers etc. I then make any turret correction require. Next I double check that I am on the right target and then place the cross hair where I want it.

I then pick a particular flag or pair of flags, that seems to be true and keep one eye on it / them, with both eyes open.
One eye on the flags and one on the target.
When the flag(s) is(are) where I want it, focus onto the target and take up the final pressure up on the trigger.
Often you need to make slight changes to your point of aim to compensate for the flags. I do this with the rear bag and shoulder pressure.
Hard to do this if your not watching your cross hair.

[johnk]

Denis,

As far as SSRs are concerned, I suspect that a RO would be hard pressed to exclude free recoil on the basis that 20.2.9 & 20.19 define the required position as prone without qualification, thus arguably obviating the need to refer to any TR requirement.

How do you reconcile T6.3 with F6.1 which says that the prone or supine position may be used? In the supine position, the butt is in the armpit. In the case of ICFRA, the rules define a position which is not approved for TR, thus emphatically rendering the need to refer to TR rules unnecessary, as I see it.

John

[jasmay]

I need to ask a couple jf questions but the Aussie team was pinned in America for free recoil, it was successfully argued that under icfra rules it is allows rod Davies can answer more AlanF probably also know about this one.

I am with Dennis though, consistency would be a big issue I believe.

[johnk]

It's the US domestic rules that mandate the butt touching the shoulder, not ICFRA.

[AlanF]

It's the US domestic rules that mandate the butt touching the shoulder, not ICFRA.

Agreed. And even then it would be difficult to rule on when the shooter is wearing loose or padded material on the shoulder. I shot the US Nationals using my normal style which is barely touching, and wasn't spoken to (although they had over 300 shooters to watch ).

I wasn't aware of any protests in the FCWC, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Rod as F-Open Vice-Captain may have been involved.

Alan

[John23]

Thanks for the feed back.

I will be interested the the free recoil being illegal or not.
Dose anyone know how the Aussies were allowed get around it?

Its not a big problem if it breaks the rules as I will change my approach as I am only at a experimental stage of shooting prone and have been toying with new things each week.

Unfortunlly free recoil is a thing I have come to love with this rifle and rest set up.

Info on the rifle to answer that question is its a Savage chambered in 6.5x47 and built to 9kg. It is very low in recoil.


I shoot with 2 eyes open but have never been able to read read the flags with my spare eye. It pretty well becomes a blur an when I switch between the two I find it time consuming to find my sight picture thought the scope again.
This is something that my be practiced and perfected.


JH

[RAVEN]

JohnK is correct with regard to the US ruling

It's the US domestic rules that mandate the butt touching the shoulder

There was a protest in the FCWC by one of the other teams (won't say who) against one of the Queensland FO team members for free recoiling this was overturned because it is allowed within the ICFRA shooting rules.

RB

[DenisA]

Denis,

As far as SSRs are concerned, I suspect that a RO would be hard pressed to exclude free recoil on the basis that 20.2.9 & 20.19 define the required position as prone without qualification, thus arguably obviating the need to refer to any TR requirement.

How do you reconcile T6.3 with F6.1 which says that the prone or supine position may be used? In the supine position, the butt is in the armpit. In the case of ICFRA, the rules define a position which is not approved for TR, thus emphatically rendering the need to refer to TR rules unnecessary, as I see it.

John

G'day John,

I've spent some time this morning reading rules and trying to understand the discrepancies.

T6.3 is from SSR's that were approved in 2008 and as above specifically mention the rile butt touching the shoulder in the prone position.

Where I've gone wrong is that that new SSR's effective 26.07.2013 have no description of prone position or shoulder/butt relationship. I don't know if that was intentionally not included or an oversight. None the less, it is what it is and reading the latest SSR's I agree there is nothing to condemn free recoiling.
Rules that are not mentioned under the F-class chapter still fall back on T/R rules, however T/R rules no longer clarify this point.


CHAPTER 20
F CLASS TARGET SHOOTING [FC]
NOTE:- Where these rules for both F Open and F Standard do not specifically cover a particular subject that may arise then the Rules as pertaining to TR shall apply.

1.1.2 Amendments to rules that are to take effect immediately will be publicised on the NRAA website and in the National Target Magazine.
1.1.3 All previous Rules are hereby repealed.

I stand corrected, thanks JohnK for making me go looking.

[John23]

Thanks for the time and effort everyone.

So green light for free recoil !

Thanks to this thread I think I am going to sit down and read the rules in full and try to develop a full understanding of what is and is not acceptable in the sport.


JH