OzFclass

New Lapua brass versus used re-annealed, has anyone tested which is the most accurate ?

Perhaps even the broader question, new versus used ?, which will perform the best at long range ?

Josh,
I have got a new 7mm Bartlein chambered in 284 Win by Matt Paroz that is going pretty well and I am using 100 brand new Lapua cases, along with 100 "used" cases that were fired 2-3 times in the barrel that died (OK.....the one I killed) and put photos of on the forum in the "Death of A Barrel" thread.
I am also using 50 re-cycled cases that had been fired 5 times in my first Maddco barrel.
I had annealed them (the 50) using Mark F's wonderful Giraud Annealing machine that he set up carefully first. Wild Dog has so many calibers working, and does a lot of shooting, so he probably has more annealing experience than anybody that I have ever met. So with his experience, I am certain that they were annealed perfectly. All I have to do is load them into the vacant hole in the self indexing, fully automated wheel that holds the cases.
On paper, I honestly can't see any difference between the three lots of cases, with most of them now fired twice in the new chambering.
Two different PT & G reamers have been used, both with a 0.313" neck. It has to stand as a bit of a testament to the quality of Dave Kiffs workmanship that the brass is so perfectly interchangeable, after using a custom Bushing FLS die that Redback Precision made nearly four years ago using his PT &G reamer.
Having said that, I will certainly be heeding Williada's advice and using the "new" cases for the NRAA & QRA Queens.....in case I am wrong ...and on the off chance that David knows what he is talking about ! It is rather difficult to argue with his idea of going to a Queens with perfectly prepped virgin brass that has only been fired twice in a new chamber .
But to repeat, I can't find any difference in accuracy of new Lapua brass, V's "Used"
Maybe I just got lucky !

Josh,
I should have added that I have only fired the new barrel out to 700 yards so far, but I am confident that it will work at 1000 yards.

I prefer brass fired at least 2-3 times it needs to fit the chamber I have brass that has had 30 reloads and still would be happy to use in competition but that’s my old gun and only comes out when my competition rifle is at the doctor.
Annealing is all about neck tension and how consistently the bullet is released because I’m only an occasional annealed I always like to fire that batch of brass before I use it in an important competition
Otherwise anneal every reload this has proven to get the necks the most consistent.
The same applies to shoulder bump/ case weight/ primer pockets/ primer seating /bullet weight/bearing surface length/meplat lenght and bullet point plus the other 20 odd things that help
then all you have to do is read the wind
good luck

Not to forget bullet run out.
There is no use using fully preped brass when your bullet is seated crooked.
Cheers
Paul

And none of us has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.....honestly !

In the rules page there is talk of 308 chamber size
Now that is obsessive blaa blaa

What are you doing up so early Tony? Find something in the bed?
Cheers
Paul

I sometimes have a laugh about the different emphasis that individual shooters put on things when trying to get the best performance. Some are no doubt well-founded, but others I suspect can be a distraction from the things that really matter. I know a few who blame nearly everything on things like the bedding, or the powder scales, or the cleaning, or the bullets, or the scope, or lack of practice, or the powder batch, or the rest setup etc. etc. My obsession is undoubtedly barrels. If I get a shot out the bottom, the barrel immediately gets the blame . The fact is there are many many things that can affect performance, and winning is about covering all bases, or at least not neglecting important ones.

BTW I'm not for a moment saying brass quality isn't important. My current attitude to brass is that for major competitions, twice-fired up to about 4 times fired is best, then it gets demoted for lesser occasions. I don't anneal because no-one seems to be saying its worthwhile during the first few firings. And the limiting factor for longevity of 284 brass is of course primer pockets, not over-worked necks. Things could change if the Bertram brass eventuates .

I'm not saying one way or the other is best.

What I will say though is that I've NEVER had brand new brass shoot badly and quite often it's shot better than some older batches that I've only neck sized and some batches that I've neck sized and shoulder bumped .001".

At the Nationals last year, with my 6BR, I shot my highest competition scores of 60.7 @ 500y, 60.7 @ 600y and 60.4 @ 1,000y on brand new un-fire formed Lapua brass. I hadn't neck turned, weight sorted or bothered checking concentricity. I had run an expander down the neck and then neck sized the cases.

..... The above said, the only reason that I used new cases at the Nats was that I ran out of time to prep old ones. Usually my prep is extensive and I screw around with all the individual little steps far more than I obviously need to. It's just the OCD, I cant get a handle on it.

Josh, the annealing process has two distinct applications. One is for fire-forming a case to create new dimensions and the other is a remedial application to re-condition the neck/shoulder hardness.

When a case is fire-formed, you often have to turn the necks and with some calibres ream them. Annealing at this stage enables you to reduce the wall thickness variance because your cutter is working with a softer and consistent hardness. Whereas reconditioning the brass, as Raven rightly points out, is concerned with neck tension. Annealing reduces neck tension variance. But it always has to be tempered again before using for extreme accuracy. This is simply done by work hardening with an expander and then firing a couple of shots. I do this on new brass because if you think about it the brass comes freshly annealed but not tempered. I am glad to see Denis pick up on this point. Also, as I have mentioned before, annealing and tempering or work hardening assists a consistent shoulder bump and or spring back so that headspace does not vary much over .005”. If it does, it will interfere with the harmonics; and sometimes via the variable tension on the threads of your receiver and barrel when the bolt is closed on hard cases or cases of variable hardness.

After 2-3 firings it’s time to trim to length and turn to size and sort cases by weight and or by volume because the cases should fit the chamber. They should now be cherry ripe for a big match.

For a big match, I would use new cases for their 3rd or 4th firing as I have indicated to Tony. Old cases or cases from another chamber can have a spring back memory if something does not go right with annealing. It’s just an added precaution. I always iron the case, in order to work harden it using a neck expander because neck tensions will always vary after annealing for 2 shots. Consistent annealing can be difficult.

Alan’s point regarding loose primer pockets is important. I use a reduced load operating at a lower node to shoot new brass in for the first two shots to allow it to work harden gradually. Not only does it facilitate even neck tensions but I feel it reduces primer pocket expansion until it is sufficiently hard enough to tolerate hotter loads which may prematurely screw primer pockets on new brass. The ideal case is relatively hard at the base with a supple neck. You need neck suppleness to impart better neck tension. If the necks are too hard you get more spring back after re-sizing and so a lighter tension will result than what is expected. A light tension can be good, but I prefer a lighter tension to be induced on a supple neck like a new case. You always have to keep an eye on the neck thinning from sizing rather than just observing brass flow from shooting and then having to trim.

I suggest the first firing of a case has the projectile jammed into the lands .010” to allow for an even expansion of the case and the creation of acceptable a spring back memory. If loaded rounds have any free flight they will sit at 6 o’clock in the chamber. On firing, the top wall will expand at faster rate and so you have instantly set up wall thickness variance. This may exacerbate run out problems which dies do not cause; and with spring back, there is a tendency for banana shaped cases to develop. Using free flight on subsequent firings is not as critical and not critical at all if you only neck size.

Mind you your chamber should be cut to your case dimensions and your dies should be cut with an undersize reamer based on case spring back and clearance calculations to match the case specification.

My best scores have been shot with brand new virgin brass.
In two seperate batches, well, same factory lot batch, but loading them in batches of 100.
6.5x47