OzFclass

Everyone seems to have their pet regime for cleaning barrels. If you ask 10 people you will get 9-10 answers......

Recently my 7mm seemed to go off the boil a bit, i mean its had 2000 rounds and ... anyways i cleaned it with every solvent known to man (even a little borepaste) and still matt's borescope revealed carbon fouling in the lands for about the first 6 inches in particular. The odd microscopic copper fleck but mainly carbon buildup. After cleaning accuracy improved.

I <think> there is always some carbon in the lands (fouling) that helps seal the bore. Perhaps the elevation changes in sighters in a super clean bore relate to this sealing, so your first shot is 0.5 min low etc. I have not noticed this with this particular barrel for a while now, probably because its always a little fouled ? BUT when the carbon buildup becomes too great, and the jacket of the bullet has to squeeze past, some deformation may occur leading to a loss of accuracy.

SO.. I tried this. 20 passes with a bronze brush, then push a tight patch lubricated with a little hoppes down the bore only. This picks up significant carbon EVERY time i do this process. Say even 10 times.

QUESTION: Can the bronze brush harm the stainless steel (i think not) ? Is a little carbon in your lands a good thing (i think so) ? Is accuracy decline due to too much of this good thing ? and is the physical removal with a bronze brush the best way ? remember the solvents, all i tried did not remove significant carbon, and the patches were coming out clean !

Andrew Beavis
North Sydney RC

[quote="macguru"]Everyone seems to have their pet regime for cleaning barrels. If you ask 10 people you will get 9-10 answers......

Recently my 7mm seemed to go off the boil a bit, i mean its had 2000 rounds and ... anyways i cleaned it with every solvent known to man (even a little borepaste) and still matt's borescope revealed carbon fouling in the lands for about the first 6 inches in particular. The odd microscopic copper fleck but mainly carbon buildup. After cleaning accuracy improved.

I <think> there is always some carbon in the lands (fouling) that helps seal the bore. Perhaps the elevation changes in sighters in a super clean bore relate to this sealing, so your first shot is 0.5 min low etc. I have not noticed this with this particular barrel for a while now, probably because its always a little fouled ? BUT when the carbon buildup becomes too great, and the jacket of the bullet has to squeeze past, some deformation may occur leading to a loss of accuracy.

SO.. I tried this. 20 passes with a bronze brush, then push a tight patch lubricated with a little hoppes down the bore only. This picks up significant carbon EVERY time i do this process. Say even 10 times.
QUESTION: Can the bronze brush harm the stainless steel (i think not) ? Is a little carbon in your lands a good thing (i think so) ? Is accuracy decline due to too much of this good thing ? and is the physical removal with a bronze brush the best way ? remember the solvents, all i tried did not remove significant carbon, and the patches were coming out clean !
Andrew Beavis
North Sydney RC


Andrew,
Carbon is the "kiss of death" for any barrel! Carbon is your problem which in turn picks up copper.
If you use naked bullets, I suggest a normal clean with carburettor cleaner on a bronze brush, patch the barrel out then pour a litre of boiling water thru the barrel, while hot, bronze brush with carby cleaner & patch, now use Boretech Eliminator on a nylon brush, leave over night & patch out & oil.
Now you know why I moly coat. It makes cleaning soooo much easier, my barrels are done & dusted in 10 minutes. Oh one other thing, light or hot loads make carbon fouling worse & carbon fouling is usually a little worse in colder weather. Some powders carbon more than others, this can vary from lot to lot.
It is normal for a properly cleaned barrel to put it's first sighter at the bottom of the group. I find some barrels to be sensitive with their "conditioning" but having said that I have never found a barrel that would not behave as expected when Sweets oil is used for the last process of cleaning. These are the opinions of a grumpy old gunsmith with 40+ years on the job & I have experimented with just about every conceivable method of barrel cleaning & conditioning known to common man!
Keith H.

Keith, I have decided that of course you are right and the carbon buildup is a real problem. This krieger barrel has given very good service and because the saum load it fires is mild, about the same as your 280 hills, the rifling is still in good shape. After another 10-15 cycles, of bronze brushing and patching, I am getting to the end of the carbon deposited in the lands ! I used bore tech carbon remover because i have a big bottle of the stuff a friend gave me, to lubricate the brush, and its all looking good.

Then I dried the bore and finished with sweets oil. I think number 9 might be just as good as boreteck but i am not sure. that carby cleaner is pretty toxic stuff but i will get some and try it...

I think i will get a packet of 7mm bronze brushes. I assume these cannot wear the lands out ?? I also have a new pacnor barrel for the barnard matt just chambered and i would not want to stuff it !

Andrew

You can always just get your barrel sonic cleaned at regular intervals .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTdsk01OuSQ

sounds good. I think i will see how the groups, number of foulers required etc go and do this conventional clean every time to stay on top of it ......

besides i dont know anyone with this gear yet

If you read what some of the gun 1000yd BR guys do in the states... one of the prominent ones will never clean his barrels back to bare steel. He prefers that very slight amount of grey inside which supports your theory of a little carbon is good. Everyone has their own way of doing it but his abilty to put down some amazing aggs has to mean his methods are working.

There is one in Mackay , works a treat , although a barrel I got done came out a bit too clean , have to run it in again .....

Julian, I think thats the point we are making. Some barrels might shoot better with a bit of carbon in them. Matt says tight barrels shoot better than not so tight, as a rule, maybe the 'not so tight' like a dusting of carbon ? Although both Matt and Keith are gunsmiths and clean it all out ........

Cleaning is I think very under-rated as to its importance for accuracy. As Andrew said, there are many different recipes out there. My current thoughts about it, and I stress CURRENT, are that barrels are a bit like sore backs. With sore backs, there is sure to be a chiropractor out there with a method that fixes your back every time - its a matter of finding him. And when you do you tell everyone about it. Then someone else is impressed by your story and goes to the same chiropractor, and wishes he hadn't bothered. Reason? - sore backs are not all the same. As we all know, barrels aren't all the same either. They respond to different cleaning methods and frequency. I've heard Rod Davies call it "personality" of a barrel. You have to try different things until you stumble on something that suits the barrel. Anything from cleaning to bare metal after every shoot to hardly ever cleaning, dry brushing, lead plugs, boiling water etc. Just don't get too locked in to a method because it works on SOME barrels.

AlanF wrote:Cleaning is I think very under-rated as to its importance for accuracy. As Andrew said, there are many different recipes out there. My current thoughts about it, and I stress CURRENT, are that barrels are a bit like sore backs. With sore backs, there is sure to be a chiropractor out there with a method that fixes your back every time - its a matter of finding him. And when you do you tell everyone about it. Then someone else is impressed by your story and goes to the same chiropractor, and wishes he hadn't bothered. Reason? - sore backs are not all the same. As we all know, barrels aren't all the same either. They respond to different cleaning methods and frequency. I've heard Rod Davies call it "personality" of a barrel. You have to try different things until you stumble on something that suits the barrel. Anything from cleaning to bare metal after every shoot to hardly ever cleaning, dry brushing, lead plugs, boiling water etc. Just don't get too locked in to a method because it works on SOME barrels.

Alan,
What I have posted works on ALL GOOD barrels. Some barrels do perform better than others dirty but all "GOOD" barrels work well CLEAN to moderately fouled. I have probably seen & used more barrels than anyone reading this forum & I have never seen a GOOD barrel that had to be dirty to shoot accurately & reliably, it is almost impossible to maintain the correct amount of fouling in these barrels, sooner or later even these will need to be cleaned, or when pushed too far will "go off" badly due to being too heavily fouled usually in the middle of a shoot. For these reasons barrels should be cleaned correctly & regularly.
Of course as we well know there will always be exceptions to every "rule", but these have been my findings over many years of relatively successful competitive shooting, not to mention as many years of varmint hunting.
Keith H.

Brad Y wrote:If you read what some of the gun 1000yd BR guys do in the states... one of the prominent ones will never clean his barrels back to bare steel. He prefers that very slight amount of grey inside which supports your theory of a little carbon is good. Everyone has their own way of doing it but his abilty to put down some amazing aggs has to mean his methods are working.

Brad,
One thing to remember, some highly competitive shooters do not always tell the whole truth of what they do. "Gamesmanship" abounds in many forms & all levels. What I write has been proven beyond all doubt by me, I do not express an opinion on technical matters unless it is proven to me by me. However as I have said elsewhere, there will always be exceptions to every "rule" in that some things will work that defy logic. Maintaining the correct amount of fouling in a barrel as described above is not easy to do & may well work for this obviously very experienced man. If anyone decides to go down this road, bear in mind there will be pitfalls along the way while learning to maintain a barrel in this manner.
Keith H.

And remember that with 1000yd BR, they get a sighting period sufficient to fire many fouling shots, so what they say doesn't necessarily apply to fullbore/f-class. I think the most valuable advice for us on cleaning will come from experienced f-class shooters with consistently accurate rifles, and BTW I don't put myself in that category - particularly as regards rifle accuracy. Some shooters religiously follow barrel makers advice. In my opinion its barrel users, not makers, who generally have the most experience with trying different cleaning methods and products.

My shooting today showed that both rifles needed a few more shots to settle down after a thorough clean, especially the more heavily used one. say 7-10 shots......... Actually, this may only apply to the barrel thats done 2000, the new one was probably ok after 1-2 shots.

Thought I would do a favour for everybody and post , so it's back up the top of the topics page. Has some good info. Still like Cam's method of JB paste on Chux cloth and after a thorough clean he used to do the first 6" forward of the chamber.
Funny Uumm was only going to be short comment ! Lol! Guess that is not possible with me hehe!
My Bart 7-08 Ai at Monto just went off and yes it had 120 rounds on it after the Nats , was going quite well and thought, won't clean it ! Wrong move !
Anyway, gave a real good scrub and JB bore brite and it came back !