Freedom of Speech

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Mel Q
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

Freedom of Speech

#1 Postby Mel Q » Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:55 pm

Before you read what I was compelled to write below, I would like to point out to you all that I have chosen to post this without the consent of Tony Q. He truly believes that this is an important step in F class, and he does not wish to cause trouble for this forum.

However, the truth is the truth, and it will be said.

Freedom of speech…

A persons right,

a persons right to have an opinion,

and finally a persons right to express that opinion.

It has unfortunately become clear that there are certain individuals that believe if you have a passion for something, if you believe in trying so hard to do the best you can to overall benefit others, then you should be punished. There are no words that can describe how outrageous and downright pathetic it is to watch people attack individuals for having this kind of passion and for showing it, and then to ultimately have that individual banned from an open forum.

For those of you who are unaware, Tony Q has been banned from this forum for a period of 12 months. I’m positive there are some of you who would believe this to be good news, and therefore no one could deny that your interest in this sport is not to watch it move forward but perhaps even backwards. I am now forced to say to those select few men and women….. well boys and girls….. get over your personal vendettas, get over your power struggles, get over yourself, and finally grow up!

The 12 month ban that has been kindly bestowed upon Tony Q was due to excessive messaging, and not for foul language or personal threats which you would think would warrant such a punishment….. So any of you that have been typing one too many messages lately, be careful, you might just find that if you exceed 200 messages you might earn yourself a 3 month ban, maybe even 4 months.

So how do we end this dispute? I request that the administrator lift his 12 month ban, and instead try to reach some sort of compromise, maybe a one month probation period. Don’t you think that sounds a little more reasonable?

Although he is now very reluctant to post anymore, I’m sure Tony Q would be a little more careful with the number of messages he post from this time on, especially considering if he reaches a 1000 posts he might just be banned for life. Doesn’t that sound silly? Yeah I thought so too, but from what I’ve seen you just never know what’s going to happen on this forum. For instance, Tony Q has been falsely accused of certain wrong doings; it is unbelievably easy to clear this little mishap up and let the truth shine through, however I guess it just seems easier to ban members without consultation than to take the time to find the answers.

I kindly ask for people to support my post, and to agree that banning members is not the way to resolve such issues. I’m sorry that I felt the need to post this even though people advised against a response, but we are never going to get anywhere if we silence those who are clearly beneficial to the future.

On another note, anyone trying to contact Tony Q will have to send PMs to me as he is now unable to access his messages.

Good shooting to all

Regards

Mel

‘I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’

Voltaire


‘If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter’

George Washington

Simon C
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 9:43 pm
Location: Adelaide

#2 Postby Simon C » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:17 am

Looking from the outside, Im a little shocked and quite concerned regarding this.

Although I dont know the specific reasons for Tony's ban, it appears to demonstrates the fact that this forum has descended to a new level of garbage.

Although I dont always agree with Tony all all points, I respect his opinion (as just that....i.e HIS OPINION) and as Mel put it, he has the right to do so...as do all of us. If he has broken forum rules regrding profanity or personal attack then I understand, however I have not seen any posts which lead me to believe this is the case.

I havent done too much posting in recent times as I have watched points of discussion develop into slinging matches which, do absolutley nothing for the betterment of the sport and its future....Although I cannot speak for other forum members, I suspect that this is the case for many.

This situation appears to stink of something else....what it is or for what secondary gain, I do not know. Maybe others can shed some light on it?? It seems a little politcal to be quite honest........Dare I say, Shakespearean even.

Personally, I dont feel there is much to gain through participating in this forum anymore. I check it every day and the link sits in my favourites folder both at home and at work...it has got to the point where I am now going to remove it. I really do not wish to talk to people about the future of the sport right now anyway....maybe in a year or so as this seems a popular timeframe.

Before I go, I want to make it clear that I harbour no ill feelings for anyone on here.....I am merely expressing my opinion. At the end of the day, I got into F-Class as it offered the marksmanship challenge I had been looking for a long time......So I am content to just enjoy shooting my rifle on the range whenever I can and I hope to speak and shoot with u all someday.

Take care,
"Aim small, miss small"

Simon

Guest

#3 Postby Guest » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:49 am

I too am very disappointed to learn that Tony Q has been banned, for basically speaking his mind.
In situations such as this, and because I am a rather cynical b-----d, I get to wondering what the real reason is.
Surely it's not for having too much to say. Sure, Tony hammered a point to what some may consider excessive, but unlike others on this forum, he never changed his point of view, never got nasty, Yes, bit back when bitten,and rightly so too,and above all presented himself always with the best interests of shooting in mind.

Politics was not his agenda, but I wonder if politics was his downfall!!

I wonder?

Barry Davies

Tony Z
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:02 am

#4 Postby Tony Z » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:11 am

edited 19/4/06
Last edited by Tony Z on Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paul Janzso
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:10 pm
Location: Mackay QLD

#5 Postby Paul Janzso » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:56 am

I am Dumfounded to read that Tony Q has been banned.
He has helped me move into F Class greatly, with all my questions that I asked him, I myself would probably told me to "get lost".
But Tony Q always came up with very thoughtfull answers.
Goodbye OZFCLASS.COM.

PEST BIRD
Last edited by Paul Janzso on Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Time's a wasted wot's not spent shooti'n BARNARD 300WSM's

Paul Janzso
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:10 pm
Location: Mackay QLD

#6 Postby Paul Janzso » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:57 am

Edited by me
Time's a wasted wot's not spent shooti'n BARNARD 300WSM's

Mel Q
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#7 Postby Mel Q » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:01 am

My father (Tony Q) has asked me to post this statement for him.


Before things get out of hand and cause damage I need to say this for your information and consideration,

I believe this forum is generally doing a great job and do not wish to see any harm come to it. I ask that those who have decided not to post anymore to reconsider as it is important we keep this site intact for everyone and the future of F Class in Australia.

The Administrator of this site had his reasons, but I do wish I had been consulted first to clear up the suspected wrong doing. The problem was, apart from overposting, that I have been occasionally ‘Proxy’ posting/voting for another using a seperate login name, with his full consent and only his thoughts either dictated over the phone or given in person. He trusts me to represent him without any personal manipulation if I happen to disagree with his thoughts or decisions. I came clean with the truth when I could have denied it, but now I am implicated as being deceitful or dishonest, While the 'proxy' posts have been few (less than 25 since June) it still could be construed as wrong even though we have been somewhat encouraged to proxy others thoughts ... i have now told him i will not continue doing this.

All this can be verified and will be in the near future.

I hold no grudges or vendettas as I believe there is never any valid reason why one would, and besides they serve absolutely no constructive purpose. What has happened has happened for whatever reason but I do now feel that I have nothing else to say or contribute without being painted as ‘suspect’

Thank you, and keep up my good work during my absence ... :)

Tony Q




Mel.

Ps. Sorry for the corrections, I really need to teach him how to spell properly!
Last edited by Mel Q on Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:32 pm, edited 4 times in total.

bjld
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: South Australia

#8 Postby bjld » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:13 am

Believe it or not, I'm actually going to miss TQ's postings. I may have accused him of bleating on about FS stocks, but at the same time I'm the only person who's voted for minimal moderating of this site in Alan's poll (21 votes so far). It had seemed that TQ got the message about repetitive posts (<25 since June?) as the forum evolved.

Regards
Ben Davies

Lynn Otto
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:56 pm
Location: SA

#9 Postby Lynn Otto » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:20 am

Whilst the outcome of this incident is unfortunate I would thank Tony for encouraging people to continue participating, especially since two that have said they would withdraw are intelligent, capable people who are able to make a constructive contribution to the sport and this forum.

To avoid this situation in the future it would be worth informing our friends and clubmembers without computers that they are still capable of participating on this forum. This can be done by using their local public library or other community internet facility (most councils provide them). It is not difficult to have a Hotmail.com email address and then access the site from these public facilities. While I appreciate that it is not the most convenient option, it would give them access without causing problems elsewhere.

RAVEN
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

#10 Postby RAVEN » Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:22 pm

I am also disappointed on the penalty handed out although I would agree that TQ is a habitual poster he only has the best interest of F-Class at heart
it seems to me that TQ has created great debate on various issues and for those that don’t like thinking out side their little Box well get over it !!!
That’s what a forum is for discussion and opinion I have read some post by ppl that have been personal attack on forum members and what action was take ZIP.
I am aware of the reasons for his ban and I’m sure if TQ new the penalty he would have done it differently IP numbers are unique to the internet connection His only wrong doing (and hindsight is a wonderful thing) is advise the admin what he want to do first.
The famous Mr. Bill Calfee also post via proxy as he is to old or does not understand electronic communication so he gets someone to do it for him
There are probably allot of ppl like this but still would like to express there opinion through this vehicle.
I am sure that there was no deception intended just ignorance of the consequence. :shock:

Administrator
Site Admin
Posts: 39
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:44 pm

#11 Postby Administrator » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:01 pm

I believe its time for my side of the story. Firstly, its unfortunate that this is being discussed in public - however that's Tony's decision.

It's not surprising that Tony has so much support in this matter. It is well known that he is very passionate about F-Class and helping new shooters in South Australia, and I take my hat off to him for that. In fact if more people were prepared to do the same around Australia, shooting would benefit greatly.

My problem with Tony is confined to his behaviour on the Forums. He is single-handedly causing many people not to join, or to stop posting in frustration. I know this because of numerous complaints from both members and non-members. My main priority with the forums management is to ensure that it shows F-Class shooting in a good light, provides a useful service to everyone, and that participation levels grow. Clearly Tony's behaviour is adversely affecting the popularity of the site.

So I have asked him several times over the last few months to back off with his level of posting and virtual "ownership" of the F-Std rules discussions. Each time he has agreed, only to go back to the old ways after a short time. The recent confirmation that he has been using several Login names to post under prompted me to act, because asking was getting nowhere. I will confirm that the logins TonyQ plus 2 others have been banned but the time period is not definite.

Now let's have some suggestions from those who think this is heavy-handed. If this was your website which you'd dreamed up, then created and kept updated and running, and you could see it falling apart because of someone who despite repeated requests, continued to behave in a way which was harming the popularity of the site, what would you do? And I'm not trying to be smart, what would be a reasonable course of action to take if words were getting you nowhere?

Alan :?

RAVEN
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

#12 Postby RAVEN » Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:25 pm

Hi Alan firstly I would like to say you do an excellent job on running the web site (a tough one Im sure)
I don’t think I agree with the duration but that is your call
This was not a freedom of speech issue rater a breaking of forum rules it would be good to have them permanently up on a page so ppl can reacquaint them selves and if they fail to do that my be directed and reminded of them.
3 strikes an ya get banned full stop!
Richard

Lynn Otto
Posts: 1121
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:56 pm
Location: SA

#13 Postby Lynn Otto » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:03 pm

Alan

Firstly I would agree with Richard that you do a great job, firstly in providing this site to us and then in its constant need to be maintained. I would also agree with Richard that a clear set of rules should be listed to cover both registrations and general etiquette on the forum. This could be available on the home page and the forum page and be a necessary agreement point for new registrations. This would avoid any future incidents that may be detrimental to the forum.

In regard to the current situation for which you have asked for comment, I don't know what is reasonable, but it is your site and we should all respect that and any decisions you make, as I'm sure you are a fairminded person.

It reminds me of the old adage about being in business, "you work and do a good job for twenty years, and no one notices or says thankyou, make one small mistake and the whole world knows". I think most of us have noticed the good work and I would like to take this oportunity to say "Thank You, I am grateful for your time and work".

Lynn

Mel Q
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:16 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#14 Postby Mel Q » Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:45 pm

Alan, first of, you have done an amazing job with this forum and I applaud you for that, and so has my father many times.

I would now like to remind you, as I stated in my private message yesterday, that the decision to bring all of what has happened onto the open forum has solely been due to me and not my father. Therefore, since it was he himself that strongly insisted that I do not bring this issue to light; do not accuse him of bringing this to the publics’ attention.

I understand your frustration in regards to the excessive posting, however, what warrants one person to be banned but not another? You claim that he is responsible for people deciding to stop posting out of sheer frustration, please have a close look at the individuals you are referring to. I think you would find that the individuals in question, although they have vast knowledge of this sport, usually have nothing more to offer than childish behaviour. Why is it that these people can give it, but when it comes to taking it, then they state it is too much, they’ve had enough, they will no longer post.

Now, despite the fact that Tony Q takes credit for 711 messages on this forum, I don’t think you realise how much he actually has backed off over the past two months. Maybe you should count all relevant posts and see for yourself. But in case you’re not willing to do that, I have. Tony Q has been a member for 7 months, in that time he has written, as said before, 711 messages. However, in the past two months, since being warned to back off, he has only written 60 messages, on top of that only 40 of those we’re related directly to F standard. Therefore he is now averaging 30 posts a month, to his previous 130 posts a month. Quite a change I would have thought, but still not good enough.

So despite the fact that he actually has granted your request and backed off, quite significantly, he has still been banned.

As for your statement, ‘The recent confirmation that he has been using several login names to post under prompted me to act’. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me why you decided to act without confirming this with my father. I think you would have found that if you had chosen to do this then everything that has occurred could have been prevented.

The ‘Welcome to our Forums’ topic on the general forum states no warning of the consequences of excessive messaging; instead it warns people about personally attacking on the open forum and about chatting. In fact, it states just this ‘Any posts with personal attacks will be deleted, and in serious cases, the poster may need to be banned’. So clearly the individuals that insisted on repeatedly attacking Tony Q never crossed that line, not even close hey?

I agree with Richard, there does need to be a specific page that is there to remind people of the rights and wrongs of forum use. Until there is such a page, I do not believe you can ban members due to a situation such as this.

Kind Regards

Mel

Tony Z
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:02 am

#15 Postby Tony Z » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:08 pm

edited 19/4/06
Last edited by Tony Z on Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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