Future Structure of Queens Events

[Steve N]

I am one of the above shooters that John is referring to that shot at the Natives prize meeting at Belmont on the Hexta targets. The group I shot with and the two beside us had no problems at all that I am aware of.
UNTIL the dreaded 1000 yards! We shot that range twice and first one shooter got no result except a message saying shot could not be located or similar for a few shots then the next shooter had the same result. Really looked like a faulty target. BUT it turned out BOTH shooters had their elevation settings wrong! No other problems with the system after that.
Steve

[plumbs7]

Getting back to squading , I was one of the many hands that were raised when Bob P asked if they were for squading ! And at times I've personally have benefitted from it . But it was not a real advantage the way it was at the Nats . Would have had the same result if there was a draw at the start IMO. The good ones always find a way to win somehow!

What maybe better and I'm sure it was said earlier in this thread . Is maybe only the last day to be squadded .
As for 300 yds , I think it one of the more harder ranges and shows how accurate some rifles and gear are . With Et's I believe scoped shooters would just damage the target and may induce et errors .
At prize meets it's hardly shot anymore and the Nats 300 yds was the only one I had shot at in 18 months and the first with my in rifle in that cal! ( that's why I felt like throwing up after it ! Yuk!).

My 2 c worth.

[Josh Cox]

Very disappointed with the Thursday, Friday and Saturday format for the QRA Queens this year. Many of us still work. The old format worked well ( Fri, Sat, Sun ).

[johnk]

Thursday, Friday, Saturday has been the norm for at least the last 10 years. It was bumped a day to accommodate the teams matches in 2015.

[jasmay]

I was also one of the shooters John is talking about, whilst I had no issues with the ET's myself (and felt they ran quite well) The chap I scored for did, he received "unable to locate shot" error on the screen at 600, 800 & 1000yds mid string, granted he was using a .223. And this is the sort of thing that concerns me, an unrecorded shot, call the RO, discuss and shoot again, long enough for a lot of things to change yet no optional was awarded.

In a Queens level event, that a bit of a concern.

I have also witnessed no shot recorded with a well known 7mm shooter, impossible to have been a cross fire on this range, it was mid string amongst 6's and X's in a prize shoot, blew the day completely and to date no explanation...... That's the type of thing we could do without.

[Josh Cox]

Jason,

The SSR's were changed about six months ago to deal with this possibility, another shot should have been awarded in each case, especially the mid string issues.

At 1000 yards, some of our calibres will be transonic or slower, acoustics have their limits.

[AlanF]

A question about the ETs to be used for the QRA Queens - are they all owned by one organisation, and if not, is responsibility for their maintenance assigned to a single organisation? If not then I believe its a recipe for ET performance problems. We now know that even if the targets are in pristine condition at the start of a Queens series, performance will have degraded measurably before the last range. It requires a systematic and disciplined approach to maintenance, and the organisers should take full ownership of this aspect.

[johnk]

There are two error messages Hexes will produce.

One essentially means that the shot cannot be accurately plotted & that necessitates granting a reshoot in all cases. It means that some external issue has interfered with the soundness of the acoustic chamber for that shot confusing all or some of the 8 sensors - like a minute plug of the forward diaphragm of the chamber being propelled randomly by the projectile.

The other identifies that the shot has hit the frame & despite the SSR rule, that will be considered as a miss on Brisbane Hextas. The writers of the SSRs based their one point rule on ETs where the frame is internal to the target dimension. The Hexta has framing beyond the 1800 x 2400 SSR No 1 target dimension & it would be grotesque to reward what is essentially a near miss.

There's a third circumstance I mentioned in an earlier post, that sometimes data transfer from the target to the monitor can be delayed by a comms issue. The data is not lost & will transmit when the link clears.

Jase, I don't agree with your argument that good shooters don't put one on the wrong plate. With the high scope magnifications that people are using, it's all too easy not to acquire the right target. Ask Mark. It's all to easy to skew a rifle while checking the monitor particularly when shooting off a bipod & if you can't see the target number & don't have identifying spotters on the target face ......

Alan, while there are two club syndicates & QRA with investment in targets, all are under a single agreed maintenance & functionality umbrella before & during the 2016 Queens. You'll note that there isn't the usual 1000 yard sweepstakes after the MDRA shoot & before the first day of the leadup. That is specifically done to permit final target maintenance/light refurb before the Duncan starts. I attended a meeting during the NRAA queens when the comprehensive extent of the functionality regime was defined & signed off.

John

[AlanF]

...Alan, while there are two club syndicates & QRA with investment in targets, all are under a single agreed maintenance & functionality umbrella before & during the 2016 Queens. You'll note that there isn't the usual 1000 yard sweepstakes after the MDRA shoot & before the first day of the leadup. That is specifically done to permit final target maintenance/light refurb before the Duncan starts. I attended a meeting during the NRAA queens when the comprehensive extent of the functionality regime was defined & signed off...

Well done QRA .

[jasmay]

John, I was in no way arguing that good shooters place shots on wrong targets, I've done it myself, (not sure I'm classed as good though ? )

The reason I said impossible on this range is there were only 2 targets in use, and being so close to the 2nd monitor position it was quite easy to discuss the missing shot, which had not appeared on the other monitor.....

Josh, thanks for the input, nice to know that has been accounted for.

Edit: Adding to the above, there was actually only 1 target frame I use I should have made that clearer..

[johnk]

Can't comment on that situation, other than to say that there are four situations that might give the outcome that you stated, those I nominated in my earlier post - assuming that the ET was being driven competently & was correctly on line:

Can't accurately define
Hit the frame
temporary comms loss
miss.

[Josh Cox]

Hi John,

How can there be any other outcome from this situation, other than what is written into the SSRs ?

I'm not certain any electronic target can truly detect its frame having been hit with any certainty.

I will agree with any suggestion that the changes to the SSRs can benefit a dishonest shooter, but will more likely give an unfortunate shooter a fairer outcome when there is a glitch in the matrix.

[plumbs7]

Being the King of shooting the wrong targets ( I did it 3 times at a prize meet once , who does that !?? And the numbers were written in the corner too! ), Cam and Julie said to me that " the bottom of the target , every target has a distinct rock or blades , tufts of grass or dirt that tells you it's your target" "don't rely on the target numbers"! Sorry a bit of topic , but thought it may help!

[johnk]

How can there be any other outcome from this situation, other than what is written into the SSRs ?

2.2.1 The rules of the Part 2.2 shall control all competitions provided always that a promoting body may lay down special conditions not inconsistent with these Rules in order to meet local requirements.

13.1.2 There are three Classes of target:-
(a) Third Class 1200mm x 1200mm square.
(b) Second Class 1800mm x 1800mm square.
(c) First Class 2400mm x 1800mm.

[ger]

Hi John,

How can there be any other outcome from this situation, other than what is written into the SSRs ?

I'm not certain any electronic target can truly detect its frame having been hit with any certainty.

I will agree with any suggestion that the changes to the SSRs can benefit a dishonest shooter, but will more likely give an unfortunate shooter a fairer outcome when there is a glitch in the matrix.

An acoustic electroic target can determine with a high degree of certainty (probably not absolute) that the frame has been hit.

What it can't do with any certainty is accurately determine a precise position of impact.

Under the rules that predated ICFRA there was the possibility that a miss be recorded even though impact occurred within the defined scoring area. It was for this reason that I enlarged my target slightly to ensure as best as possible the internal meaurement area. However, under ICFRA any impact outside the 2 ring (ROT - Rest Of Target) is automatically a 1. So since the frame is outside the 2 ring, even a frame impact should register as a 1.

The problem with an enlarged target is that it's not possible to accurately determine if the impact was within that defined scoring area or not.

A bullet that sails by/under/over the frame without impacting would be a miss. One or more sensors might detect it (the closest ones) but it is still a miss. Convincing shooters that this has occurred instead of one or more failed sensors might be problematic though...

Given that ICFRA mandates that any ROT impact is automatically a 1 (makes things simpler actually), there is a case to be made that the outer dimensions be as per ICFRA - 2400x1800mm and 1800x1800mm. There are a number of other reasons to justify consideration of this. One is that it would reduce the target weight a little bit.

An exception to this is when 300/400 yard/metre ranges are being shot. The prescribed scoring area for these is 1200x1200mm. I am not aware of any targets being used of this size in competition (even though such a size is legitimate under the rules). So ROT means that area between the 2 ring and that invisible 1200x1200 square around the centre. Any shot outside of this area - a horizontal or vertical (X,Y) distance of 600mm from centre - is therefore a miss. Obviously this includes any deteced frame impact. Easy. I would argue that a precise position of the frame impact is not really necessary.

Geoff.

Ozscore.