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[AlanF]

1. Do you think that the 200 yard idea could be stretched to 300 yards without markers? I shoot at 300 yards and can see the bullet holes with both my scope and spotting scopes.

That's something that could be flexible depending on conditions, shooter/scope capabilities I guess.

2. Could you not simply seperate the muzzle brake shooters from the non muzzle brake shooters in different relays? i.e. just let the muzzle brake shooters shoot before or after the non muzzle brake shooters rather than on different days.

If relays were used, but that suggests a controlled format, something not in favour with some respondents. That sort of thing could be resolved by concensus - as long as it was handled so as not to keep people away.

P.S. I have shot under the Rosedale 1000 yard car port and the noise from the roof is similar to that from muzzle brake.

Don't blame me - I wanted shade cloth .

[bsouthernau]

Don't blame me - I wanted shade cloth .

Come on Alan - admit it - it's great for BBQs. Just a pain if we happen to be shooting.

[Quick]

Bruce,

Im sorry you think tactical type rifles should not be welcomed on the mound. Those style of rifles are popular and if FB and F-Class want to survive, they will need to start thinking outside the box a bit. I shot a Tactical type 308 rifle as do well with it considering I shoot as a bag squeezer and am one of the only ones I see at swanbourne when Im there. Theres only 5-6 of us I think. I personally think that shooting as a bag squeezer(Harris, Atlas, LRA Bipod, Etc) requires more skill then std FS style(bag and rear rest) and the full-on target FTR bipods.

In saying that Im in the process(albeit slow) of building my Omark into a FTR/FO-ready rifle. But this will not stop me from bringing my R700 rifle down and shooting it when I wanna shoot 'properly' as I call it.

FWIW, Im 22 yrs old and plan on being a member of BBRC at swanbourne for the next 50 years many have said my rifle isnt competetive and I have shown them up a few times (just not as much as I would like)

I think the NRAA should start really thinking about how to get more shooters, especially younger ones around my age into the sport of we are gonna die a quick death I think soon.

A practical style comp would be awesome. Its not training to kill people, its a combination on athletices, pure marksmenship, ballistics knowledge, and innovation as you are required to shoot from various unconventional positions, at distances at unknown ranges within a set time limit. I mean seriously, how cool is that!!!! That is what would keep many young guys and girls interested as it would never get boring with the sheer conbination targets, stages, positions, etc.

Also, we could run a practical style comp on a NRAA range. Just need to think a lil bit about how to do it.

Sorry if my opinions offend some. I am just a youngun after all

[10FPAT]

[quote="Quick"]Bruce,

Im sorry you think tactical type rifles should not be welcomed on the mound. Those style of rifles are popular and if FB and F-Class want to survive, they will need to start thinking outside the box a bit. I shot a Tactical type 308 rifle as do well with it considering I shoot as a bag squeezer and am one of the only ones I see at swanbourne when Im there. Theres only 5-6 of us I think. I personally think that shooting as a bag squeezer(Harris, Atlas, LRA Bipod, Etc) requires more skill then std FS style(bag and rear rest) and the full-on target FTR bipods.

In saying that Im in the process(albeit slow) of building my Omark into a FTR/FO-ready rifle. But this will not stop me from bringing my R700 rifle down and shooting it when I wanna shoot 'properly' as I call it.

FWIW, Im 22 yrs old and plan on being a member of BBRC at swanbourne for the next 50 years many have said my rifle isnt competetive and I have shown them up a few times (just not as much as I would like)

I think the NRAA should start really thinking about how to get more shooters, especially younger ones around my age into the sport of we are gonna die a quick death I think soon.

A practical style comp would be awesome. Its not training to kill people, its a combination on athletices, pure marksmenship, ballistics knowledge, and innovation as you are required to shoot from various unconventional positions, at distances at unknown ranges within a set time limit. I mean seriously, how cool is that!!!! That is what would keep many young guys and girls interested as it would never get boring with the sheer conbination targets, stages, positions, etc.

Also, we could run a practical style comp on a NRAA range. Just need to think a lil bit about how to do it.

Sorry if my opinions offend some. I am just a youngun after all [/quote]

Well Said Quick,
I'm 50 this year but can relate to what you are saying, I enjoy shooting F class every now & then but its not the be all & end all for me I much prefer practical style comps and NRAA ranges are well suited to that. As I have said before the NRAA & its clubs need to allow their ranges to be used (& that could be easily done with little or no impact to current F/TR users) but with people like Bruce & the dinosaur attitude he has there will little chance of that until they fade away. Unfortunatley a few ranges will probably go the way of the dinosaurs before then!

10FPAT

[Barry Davies]

Tactical rifles and steel plates on NRAA ranges??
Might need to look at the templates!

[IanP]

Tactical rifles and steel plates on NRAA ranges??
Might need to look at the templates!

Barry, Any rifle and steel plates applies to your comment!

Interestingly I was watching Bruce shoot on steel plates last weekend and he was shooting at mock ups of animals and birds! I wonder how his concern for what the general public thinks applies to his shooting on animal targets?

Ian

[Lynn Otto]

To be a little more precise, and this is not the only factor, all shots fired must be fired at the backstop and the safety template is based on 11 degrees of the line from the firing point to the backstop. Add to this the necessity to not close the bolt until the rifle is aimed at the backstop. In plain language, that seriously cramps the style for practical courses of fire. If you have access to the safety template for your particular range folks, I'd suggest you read it, you will find that in fact NRAA ranges are NOT suitable for this style of activity.

Metal objects on the range...well that a whole other kettle of fish, try asking the Police dept range inspectors how they feel about that idea.

[AlanF]

I don't see a problem with tactical type rifles used in accordance with the safety rules, which at Rosedale includes pointing at non-metal targets in the direction of the range danger area. The black or camo colour and extra picatinny rails doesn't make the rifles more dangerous. Its a bit like (are you reading this Bruce?) pimping of stocks, just for looks. Doesn't do anything for me, but neither does pimping (as anyone whose looked at my rifles will know).

[Lynn Otto]

A practical style comp would be awesome. Its not training to kill people, its a combination on athletices, pure marksmenship, ballistics knowledge, and innovation as you are required to shoot from various unconventional positions, at distances at unknown ranges within a set time limit. I mean seriously, how cool is that!!!! That is what would keep many young guys and girls interested as it would never get boring with the sheer conbination targets, stages, positions, etc.

Alan I don't think it is so much about what type of rifle, I have absolutely no interest in tactical style rifles but that does not mean I object to others liking them. But the above quote implies a course of fire that without quite specific detail, implies something that would not suit the current restrictions on our ranges. It's horses for courses and in our case there are limited options.

[Norm]

Metal objects on the range...well that a whole other kettle of fish, try asking the Police dept range inspectors how they feel about that idea.

Lynn,
I don't think that the Police Range inspectors would have any issue with metallic targets on our ranges. After all, almost all SSAA ranges have some form of metallic target permanently set up for members to use.

The issue I see is with people being in the butts while metallic targets are used. This is dangerous and not acceptable. If metallic targets are used then it would be with the target placed directly at the back stop away from the target frames and there could be no people manning the butts while shooting was taking place.

If they were used in this way then I can see no problem with their use. To my knowledge, there has not been any reported injury or damage caused with metallic targets being used in Australia.

[Lynn Otto]

Norm SSAA ranges have different rules governing their use with different safety factors built in. I'm not totally conversant with their restrictions but for us it is the ricochet factor involved with metal objects (even fastenings on the target frames) that interests the inspectors. Having been involved with several of these inspections and working through the process of getting approval for some slightly 'out of the box' use of range applications I know how hard it can be to be allowed to operate any course of fire that is not strictly within their guide lines. I guess nothing is impossible, but it can be quite difficult.

[10FPAT]

[quote="Lynn Otto"]To be a little more precise, and this is not the only factor, all shots fired must be fired at the backstop and the safety template is based on 11 degrees of the line from the firing point to the backstop. Add to this the necessity to not close the bolt until the rifle is aimed at the backstop. In plain language, that seriously cramps the style for practical courses of fire. If you have access to the safety template for your particular range folks, I'd suggest you read it, you will find that in fact NRAA ranges are NOT suitable for this style of activity.

Metal objects on the range...well that a whole other kettle of fish, try asking the Police dept range inspectors how they feel about that idea. [/quote]

lynn,
anything can be overcome, NRAA ranges are very suitable to Practical type matches within their range templates, in fact I was involved in running the IPSC state rifle titles at your Kapunda range about 10 years ago and it worked well. If you look through the other thread at one of my posts you will find a course of fire from the ACT for a match they run on the ACT NRAA range (next one due 17th Feb) reguarly.
Also the NRAA service rifle club shoots at Lower light check out the SSR's for their course of fire I'm sure their match is approved by the range inspectors.
The matches would not be totally freestyle but still very doable.

10FPAT

[ecomeat]

A "successful outcome" here, and a real Win/Win could be anywhere between (A) getting people with Tactical style rifles to lay down on the mound and shoot F Class events, side by side with F Class and T/R shooters........And
(B) allowing full on Practical/Tactical style matches to be shot on ranges, which in many cases will either clearly require significant expenditure to comply with safety requirements. ........Or (On many ranges), it will simply never be possible to cater to any sort of "move & shoot" type events that is Tactical is really all about .
Every range and every Club will be different.
Let's not forget that this thread is under HELPING F CLASS TO GROW
For my own local Club, I think it's clearly the case that " move and shoot", tactical/practical type shooting just can't work, due to the location and geography of the Range. So for me personally, it's a matter of how we can get more shooters to bring their rifles and come and lay down on the mound shooting in F Class events, side by side with full bore Target Rifle shooters as well.
I happen to think that those with tactical/practical style rifles are a perfect target for our efforts, and I have no issue whatsoever with the appearance of their rifles........I just don't want them to use muzzle breaks on the mound. Surely they can remove them, or plug them. If using a muzzle break is the only way they can handle that rifle......then they have got the wrong rifle !

For ranges where it is possible to fully cater to full on Tactical/Practical style events, then "good on you", & I wish we had half of your luck ! I am sure that your Club memberships will soar .
But for our little club here in SE Qld, I am pretty sure that we are better off supporting the original concept of exploring how to get more F Class shooters, and then getting off our bums and actively trying to do something about it.
Then hopefully they will quickly appreciate just what a phenomenal bloody sport F Class is, and get fully hooked on it like most of us are.

[Barry Davies]

The following reprinted from the Vic. Police standards for Full Bore Ranges.
Use Of Range by outside organizations ( other than a NRAA rifle club )

" If the range is to be used by outside organizations, both the club and outside organization must be aware of the potential for increases in size of the range danger area if AMMUNITION OTHER THAN NORMAL COMPETITION AMMUNITION IS USED " meaning ammo other than what the range was approved for.

Stop Butts.
--- " it must be free of stones and other hard elements ---"

The above says to me that the range templet would need to be appraised for use for ammunition other than what is approved for FB use and considering the second part it would be most unlikely metal targets would be allowed.
Barry

[Lynn Otto]

lynn,
...in fact I was involved in running the IPSC state rifle titles at your Kapunda range about 10 years ago and it worked well.
10FPAT

Hmm, I was on the committee back then so I know how many blind eyes were turned to accommodate that event, in fact it was done a couple times. Like I said, it may not be impossible but it is also not going to be as easy as just saying let's do this and having it happen.

I've read all the various suggestions and arguments and I'm not convinced we need to change our section of the shooting disciplines, we just need to do it better and smarter. I don't believe we need to start accommodating SSAA style shoots, that is what they are there for. I don't believe we need to add different courses of fire to our already varied options, we could be using more of what is already available to us to make things interesting. I do believe there is room for hunting/sporting rifles within what we already do and I did support Ken Larkin's attempt to get them put back in the rules as they once were. I am just one person but going into the future I don't want to see changes to will put our ranges at risk of not being available for my children and grandchildren. Now that closure risk may be from lack of member support or it may be closure from uninformed public opinion, either way we need to be acutely aware of the impact of what we do...or don't do.