Possible Register

Results, photos of recent events, plan future events, let people know where you'll be competing.

Moderator: Mod

Message
Author
Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#31 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:39 pm

In regard to Championship targets I think Matt is right, a total change to this target thorough all the ranks is a while off yet. We need to work on the governing bodies to change this then encourage individual clubs to adhere to it regardless of how many F Shooters they have.

Even 1 F shooter has the right to use the correct target, he is paying his money like everyone else and as such deserves the same respect.

In regard to scores on Championship targets.

I don’t care if I shoot 59/60 or 89/100 to me both are great scores for F Standard.

Those who have shot 100 in F Standard on a championship target at mid to long ranges deserve a bloody medal and immediately sent to the international F team.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#32 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:44 pm

Peter, thank you for your comments, they are inspiring.

I must note however in regard to your last sentence that wind drift is a major factor in final scores and one that generaly seperates the Std and Open calibers

If we shot in a vacuum we would find the 223 and 308 just as capable as the 6.5 ilk at any distance.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

#33 Postby AlanF » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:27 pm

Peter,

Quite apart from the advantages of wind drift, F-Open shooters have several other available advantages over F-Std which help accuracy :
- Heavier barrel
- Lighter trigger
- Heavier overall weight
- Greater selection of projectiles
So I presume your statement about the competitiveness of .223 and .308 was purely referring to those calibres, and not taking standard rifle restrictions into account?

I wish we could delay the F-Std on championship targets discussion until there are more F-Std shooters participating. After all, they are the ones who would be most affected by any change.

F-Class shooters as a whole have had years of being ruled by decisions made largely by non-F-Class shooters (to be fair, with some consultation). We of all people should recognise the importance of letting the F-Std shooters have the major say in this issue, and F-Open people should take a back seat!

After all that, IMHO 60 with an F-Std is easier than 100 with F-Open. I have an old Omark 44D circa 1982 still with the original barrel - its produced a couple of 60s in the last 12 months, while the 6.5 which I've used about 4 times as much in the same period hasn't given me a 100. And I consider the 6.5 to be more competitive in its class than is the .308.

Alan

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#34 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:01 am

Alan, i do agree that a 60 in std is more achivable than 100 in open.
I disagree that they are so easy to get that no register shoud exist for them as this thread so clearly stated.

I have shot 2 in the last 12 months (1@300m and 1@500m)

Allan, as he states, shot 2 in the last 12 months

I am the only one out of 7 regular shooters at MBRC to have shot a possible. I respect the skill of these shooters and often they will take the day with a better score. Yet they have not shot a 60.

I, as a paying member and very active F Standard shooter would like to know who is shooting 60's and what are they using.

In the last SARA Queens i saw a 60 shot at 800m and in comparison a 97 shot in open. Both were excelent shoots but they are just numbers and should be recognised for what they are. Shooting a 60 dose not make that person a better shot over an open shooter producing a 97.

This thread was not about targets it was about closed thinking, segregating the 2 classes and making myself, as a Std shooter, the unimportant underdog.

I choose F Standard because i prefer the equipment and caliber restriction as it makes me, personally, work harder to achive results.
If i shot open i would have by comparison an enormous selection of kit to choose from some of which could give me an advantage over a fellow shooter.

Thats what i like about Std ... no matter what i shoot there is no advantage over the next shooter, only skill is the seperator.

If ,as one day we will, shoot on open targets a 100 is quite unlikly or would be so rare it would not be a true indicator for a register.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#35 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:12 am

In regard to Alans other comment re his old Omark ...

Thats what attracts me to F Standard, it makes no difference if your using a 25 yr old Omark or the latest and greatest piece of high tec kit.

we are limited to 2 projectile brands and 1 projectile weight. Its only our own endevours that make a difference to our final scores.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#36 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:24 am

In regard to the comment re Open taking a back seat ..

I would prefer to say we are one group of people with different tasts in equipment. We are as important as each other and should support each other when it comes to F-Class.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

pjifl
Posts: 883
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:15 pm
Location: Innisfail, Far North QLD.

Possible Register

#37 Postby pjifl » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:57 am

OK. I do concede some advantages (apart from wind advantages) of F Open over F Standard. But I dont think they are anywhere as much as people think. remember, this discussion is factoring out wind.

The projectiles available to FStandard are quite capable of 100 on the open target.

People can use a front rest just the same as open.

The lower limits on the rifle weight is a slight difference but as long as you use a reasonably lightweight stock the barrel can be very substantial.

The ability to use a heavier barrel mainly means that tolerances when accurizing the action can be lower. A restriction to a lighter rifle usually means that its now easier for someone to buy better scores because they pay top gunsmiths more to get the lighter rifle working better. Heavier weight limits actually make it more affordable to all

I think the main limitations in FStandard are psycological. To break out of this a more meaningful target must be used. At the moment, effectively, a one ring target is used and no one gets extra recognition for the shots centred within the 6 ring. As soon as these are given extra points, the gear and shooting will get even better.

The top fullbore shooters are shooting 60's without scopes and rests. Why are not Top F Standard shooters getting better scores. The reason is simple - the scoring system is cooked by the choice of target that does not allow shots closer to the centre to show up as better shots.

Peter Smith

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#38 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:30 am

Yes Peter, the 308 even with the 155gn is an accurate round even at the long ranges. It does suffer from wind drift to a much higher degree over a 6.5 (as an example)

If i choose to stick with my 155's in standard class then the chance of getting a 100 score on an open target at mid to long ranges is going to be almost impossible. The advantage of bucking the wind is a real advantage in the possibility of achieving such a score, as such the Std shooter who does produce a 100 is indeed the better shot as his wind reading skills would be off the scale!

None of us should be penalized for choosing the equipment types we prefer ... its personal choice, or in some cases financial. The new shooter in most cases is limited by how much they can afford to spend on equipment and the running costs.

Those who may only have say $1500 to spend can only choose Std class. A $300 Omark with a good scope and mounts will compete very well and is cheap to feed by comparison to open rigs or calibers.

I have been shooting F Class for over 22 months now, my daughter has been shooting for 20 months. We shoot almost every Saturday and shoot in most of the OPM’s in SA.

I go through 52 rounds a week feeding 2 rifles. If I was using say a 6.5 this would have a financial impact of around $25. That extra alone is unaffordable for many people.

We would also by now be on our 2nd barells at $700+ each x 2 if we were as competitive in Open class. So, after 20 months of regular shooting I would now be even more out of pocket by approx $2500.00

Std class keeps this sport affordable to anyone who wants to have a go. And that alone is one of the highest priorities….Affordability.


To conclude:

This thread was not target type based, it was a Register of possibles.

This quickly became a Register of possibles for Open Class only.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#39 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:31 am

I would also like to point out, and I apologies for going on and on, but I do get this feeling from most of the posts on this thread that us lowly F Std shooters are underdogs waiting to mature to F Open.

I have found F Std to be a challenging sport and as challenging as F Open. With the exception of unified targets is see nothing much wrong with the way both disciplines are governed.

Also I spend a lot of my free time promoting F Class at the local gun stores and other clubs such as SSAA, or as with our training days, a lot of time in helping new sporting shooters discover F-Class.

I have had people say to me over the last 20 months…

Can I use my HB Remington 700 ? … yes you can, but we have to sort out a more appropriate scope for long range shooting.

I cant afford a new rifle just yet, what are my options? … we have built 2 omark’s now for new shooters on limited funds with good glass on top and both were under $1500 all up. Both rifles are very competitive!

I cant afford another $600 for reloading gear … or, I don’t want to reload just yet.
You don’t have to, in Std F Class you can use the Match grade 308 factory NRAA ammo,
however you will need to reload at some point to get the most out of your rifle.

F Std is more than limiting our kit to calibers restrictions, for some its an affordable starting point, for others it’s a challenge in its own right.

It has been mentioned in this thread also that the 223 and 308 are quite capable of getting good scores when grouped in with Open Class, even my 155gn 308 has competed against open calibers in OPM’s that had 1 F Class only. While I never won I was never last either.

If you run a Register for Possibles shot on Championship targets only you will probably never see a Std shooter on it past 300m. Even when we succeed in having uniform targets how do we create a register for Std class? as a 100 score is unrealistic. As I have said before, a std score of 92 (allowing for wind drift disadvantages) is just as good as an open score of 100. Std shooter should not have to work harder than a open shooter to achieve recognition for a job well done.

We are just as interested to see whos shooting what and with what equipment. So how do we do it?
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

AlanF
Posts: 7495
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

#40 Postby AlanF » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:33 am

Tony,

The main problem I have at present is the volume of work involved in keeping the list up to date :shock: . If there are 5 or 10 F-Std 60s shot each week from around Australia, this could become quite a chore on the website, particularly if we ask for equipment details. How about we leave the equipment details off the F-Std list to save work? As you say, F-Std equipment is deliberately just that, fairly standard.

On the other hand with F Open, I would expect considerably less possibles, 2 or 3 per month maybe, partly because they are more difficult to achieve, and also because there are less Open shooters. And because of the variety of calibres, components etc. equipment is of more interest. If we do go ahead with it, it'll be very interesting to see how they compare (in frequency of possibles between the two categories).

Alan :)

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#41 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:55 am

I understand Alan.

And i hope that im not being viewed as a trouble maker, im just looking to keep the thinking united and not segregated.

I do disagree with your comment regarding to many 60’s shot across Australia.
If, as you say, there are more Std shooters than Open shooters then its just a mathematical statistic that more 60’s would be shot over 100’s

60’s with a std caliber are hard to get, maybe not as hard as a 100, but still hard.

Like I said before maybe it should be group size for Std. If Tony Q shoots a 60 with a group size of 1min then he’s done well. If he shoots a 60 with a group size of 3/4min he’s done really well.

If Ben’s 6.5 shoots a 100 with a ½ to ¾ min or smaller group .. he’s done really well also.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#42 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:03 pm

bruce moulds wrote:what about an intermediate target for std, possibly th fullbore one with a stick on white 7 ring?
regards,
bruce moulds


Bruce we used a 25mm white stick on for a few months paced in the center of the 6 ring. I did provide us with a better hold point if the mirage wasnt to bad and if you hit it you got (as with fullbore) a count for it, ie. 55/2, 59/3 or 60/4

The white dot did not interfeer with fullbore shooters as it was invisible to them ... could be the answer untill championship targets become uniform OZ wide.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

bjld
Posts: 164
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:40 am
Location: South Australia

#43 Postby bjld » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:18 pm

Tony Q wrote:I understand Alan.
If Ben’s 6.5 shoots a 100 with a ½ to ¾ min or smaller group .. he’s done really well also.


You can't shoot 100 with a 0.75 MOA group. The biggest centre is at 600 - 0.67 MOA. Most are 0.5 MOA and the group size is typically smaller than the extreme edges of the centre.

Hey Tony, I was going to leave this thread alone until you dragged me back into it. I'm supposed to be working at the moment. I said the 6.5 had 2/3 the wind drift of the 308 and your figures bear me out. 30/44 = 2/3. 8)

Cheers
Ben

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#44 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:45 pm

Ben ... Mate :)


The championship target at 600yds is a 116mm 10 ring or 3/4moa

The fullbore target at 600yds is a 165mm 6 ring or 1.12moa

its not 4 times as big ... its 1.5 x bigger at 600yds.

So, academically, if the 6.5 has a 30% better chance of ignoring that missed wind change then at 600yds on the current targets my 1 min group 60 score would be the same as your ¾ min 100 score.

That is your 3/4min center x 1.3 (wind bucking variable) = 1min Actual


I know the centers change at different ranges, i just picked a mid range of 600yds.

PS. I to am trying to get some work done but cant keep of this site :lol:
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#45 Postby Tony Q » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:56 pm

Maybe thats the answer Ben :lol:

Apply a 30% handycap to all Std scores shot on Open targets.

That would make Lynns brilliant 99 = 130


If my wind reading skills are the same as yours ... your 6.5 will beat me every time.

If my wind reading skills are 30% better than yours then i stand a chance of producing a possible on an open target.

Thats why this thread and some of the comments made are plain unfair and bias.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!


Return to “Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests