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bjld
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Location: South Australia

#16 Postby bjld » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:25 pm

There were no possibles shot by open shooters at the MBRC OPM, and therein lies the quandry. Under the same conditions standard shooters will shoot more 60s than open shooters will shoot 100s. The reason why is because it is easier - when the bullseye is twice the diameter the target is four times the size. The register of possibles should be to recognise outstanding scores, and a necessary prerequisite is that they be shot on the CORRECT target. Standard shooters will certainly earn more recognition than an open shooter for their achievement when they score a 100.

Ben

Tony Q
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#17 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:32 pm

Ben your are a highly trained and intelligent person.

If we want to make this academic lets. For instance you claim the 6 ring is 4 x the size of the 10 ring ..

I would say its 2.5x. Why?

If you shoot a good waterline, like we all aim to, you should disregard the top and bottom 10% of the 6 ring.

The 145gn 6.5 is 60% more forgiving in the wind over a 155gn .308

So, to be fair, the 6 ring can be challenging enough!
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
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#18 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:34 pm

As with all TR shooting diciplins ... wind drift corrections are what seperates the good from the average.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

bruce moulds
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#19 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:39 pm

what about an intermediate target for std, possibly th fullbore one with a stick on white 7 ring?
regards,
bruce moulds

Tony Q
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#20 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:42 pm

Ben, if you wish to take this a little further in regard to your comment Re Bruce Moulds shooting on Std targets with his Open gun.

At the Mount Baker OPM there was only 1 F-Class.

Bruce shot a 59 with his 6.5/284 off a bench rest at 300yds.

My 20 yr old daughter shot a 59 with her Std 308 off a harris bi pod at 300yds.

She lost to Bruce through count back. Did her outstanding effort rate a mention by ANYONE … No

Did anyone show her, as such a young and new shooter any encouragement ... No

It took me 3 days to find the right switch to turn off the disappointment.

And, i had to drag her to other OPM's that had only 1 F-Class because as i told her ... its a numbers game.

(Bruce, this isn’t your fault ….. remember, I love you like a brother)
Last edited by Tony Q on Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#21 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:51 pm

Hi Bruce.

thats to complex, there should only be one target for F-class and thats the championship one.

This thread has just got my back up, its been a very long and hard day.

We have to stick together regardless of Std or Open classes.

This is not a CLASS sport ... its F-Class :!:

Sorry if im offending anyone out there (Ben)
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

bruce moulds
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#22 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:52 pm

i dig what you say bro
bruce

bjld
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Location: South Australia

#23 Postby bjld » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:09 pm

Tony Q wrote:If we want to make this academic lets. For instance you claim the 6 ring is 4 x the size of the 10 ring ..

The 145gn 6.5 is 60% more forgiving in the wind over a 155gn .308



4x was just an example. At 600 the 6 is 4.4x the area of the 10, and that's the biggest championship target in terms of MOA.

The high BC 6.5mm bullets are only 30% more forgiving than the 155gn 308s i.e 2/3 the wind drift.

Just being an academic pain in the arse!

Regards
Ben

Tony Q
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#24 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:20 pm

ok, 30 % advantage.

so does that indicate i only need to shoot a 77 on a championship target to be EQUAL to a 100 score from a 6.5?


i to can be an Academic pain :wink:
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#25 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:03 pm

ok Ben, we are both wrong.

Interoperating my Sierra, Exbal and A-Trag programs and averaging the resulting data the wind bucking ability of a 142gn 6.5 @ 2900fps over a 155gn 308 @ 2850fps

Is ………… (drum roll)

At an average distance of 700yds and with a 10mph cross wind……..

142gn 6.5cal is 30.7” of drift.

155gn 30cal is 44.2” of drift.


So on average it’s a 45% advantage in wind bucking ability.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#26 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:07 pm

So as to the statement the fullbore targets are too easy I think that just shrunk my 6 ring easy target dramatically.

They maybe easy for open class rifles Ben, but they are not that easy for std rifles.
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Guest

#27 Postby Guest » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:57 pm

ed
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#28 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:58 pm

im sorry Matt if it had the overtones of infighting, thats not what i want either.

we need to be a likeminded, supportive and understanding group of pressision shooters ... thats F class
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

Tony Q
Posts: 1044
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:04 pm
Location: Adelaide (MBRC)

#29 Postby Tony Q » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:21 pm

As for Fullbore shooters with there perception of scopes are easy. Our MBRC fullbore shooters wanted to shoot our rifles to see what it was like, most who did realised its not that easy.

As such they are one of the first ones to recognise either a good std score or a good open score.

I take my hat of to those who' tried 'before making a comment!
MBRC F-Class standard ... and proud of it!

pjifl
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#30 Postby pjifl » Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:32 pm

I have seen a 100 shot (300 y) on a championship target with a 223 - a standard rifle. The shooter and rifle deserves a lot of credit. This will happen more often than you think at shorter ranges in light conditions and the fact it was shot on the championship target is the only way it can get the recognition it deserves.

At longer ranges, under adverse conditions, this shooter is obviously at a serious disadvantage. If one was to attempt to equate the shooter using the 223 and someone with a super cartridge, the only way to do it is to use a target small enough to adequately sample BOTH shooters shots and then apply statistically derived criteria for wind correction. I am sure if this was done, many times the 223 user would come out on top. In fact, if this was done with fullbore shooters as well, they would sometimes come out ahead of all F class shooters and deserve great credit.

Making comparisons by designing different targets assumes we have the information to design them differently in the first place which is highly problematic and it deliberately dissallows recognition for better shots near the centre on the slacker target.

The whole problem derives from the fact that Fullbore shooters accept a target which allows easy possibles can accurately rank shooters and people have blindly copied this. Any glance by a scientist or statistician at fullbore results knows at a glance that they are not very meaningful because the top shooters all get the same results, or so close that the slight score differences produce ranks riddled with huge relative uncertainties. They do tell us that the top shooters are all good but thats all.

The target should be thought of as a measuring instrument which samples the shots. The sampling is screwed up if it does not bother to look at and record shots closer to the centre as better. Ideally, no score would ever - and I mean ever - get over 80 - 90% and the mean would be more like 50 %. Ranking produced from this type of sampling would be far more accurate. Another way to think of it is that, if you measure something, the measuring instrument should be calibrated in divisions much smaller than what you are measuring. You would be upset if the person tried to measure a piston bore when regrinding with an inch ruler or measure the headspace in your rifle with a mm scale !

If all F class shooters had been shooting on the same championship target, by now there would have been gathered enough statistics to indicate when an F Standard shoot was in fact the best shoot of the day.

Which would very offen happen.

Actually, there is another reason it may not happen very much at the moment. Because of shooting at the larger target, some standard shooters are not sufficiently accurizing their gear irrespective of the amount of wind drift. The other thing the smaller target does is allow more meaningful analysis of gear and encourage better accuracy. There is no reason the 223 and 308 cannot shoot to the same accuracy as F Open gear after factoring out wind drift.

Peter Smith.


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