Problems with CCI 450s

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Pommy Chris
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Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#61 Postby Pommy Chris » Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 pm

KHGS wrote:
Pommy Chris wrote:
DannyS wrote:Whether decocked or not, firing pin springs can still loose their strength. De- cocking will help but the spring is still under tension.

True, but if Barnard spring is worn out in 4 years just being under tension then it is not a good spring. There are military actions with 50 year old springs which are still hitting very hard with no miss fires. Either Barnard are making springs out of old coat hangers or CCI are the problem.
Chris


Technically you are not correct. Military actions have long firing pin falls (read long locktimes) which does not enhance fine accuracy, but does make them more reliable in the ignition stakes. The shorter the pin fall (faster lock time) the less reliable the firing pin spring will be and the more often they should be replaced. A good rule of thumb is to have the firing pin spring replaced with a new barrel. Usually subtle accuracy issues will begin to occur before misfiring occurs.
All primer manufacturers produce faulty batches of primers from time to time, I have seen faulty batches across all of the major manufacturers.
I have found that small rifle primers do not like excessive preload. I had a customers 223 target rifle come in with a misfiring problem, which persisted after replacing the firing pin spring, long story short, the rifle could be made to misfire with any primer depending on how the primer was seated, it took some time & head scratching to get to the bottom of that one!!!
Keith H.

Point I was making is you can make a spring from same material as valve springs in cars and some do, these springs basically last forever.
Chris

KHGS
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Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#62 Postby KHGS » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:06 pm

Pommy Chris wrote:
KHGS wrote:
Pommy Chris wrote:True, but if Barnard spring is worn out in 4 years just being under tension then it is not a good spring. There are military actions with 50 year old springs which are still hitting very hard with no miss fires. Either Barnard are making springs out of old coat hangers or CCI are the problem.
Chris


Technically you are not correct. Military actions have long firing pin falls (read long locktimes) which does not enhance fine accuracy, but does make them more reliable in the ignition stakes. The shorter the pin fall (faster lock time) the less reliable the firing pin spring will be and the more often they should be replaced. A good rule of thumb is to have the firing pin spring replaced with a new barrel. Usually subtle accuracy issues will begin to occur before misfiring occurs.
All primer manufacturers produce faulty batches of primers from time to time, I have seen faulty batches across all of the major manufacturers.
I have found that small rifle primers do not like excessive preload. I had a customers 223 target rifle come in with a misfiring problem, which persisted after replacing the firing pin spring, long story short, the rifle could be made to misfire with any primer depending on how the primer was seated, it took some time & head scratching to get to the bottom of that one!!!
Keith H.

Point I was making is you can make a spring from same material as valve springs in cars and some do, these springs basically last forever.
Chris


Yes you can and as it is, most quality firing pin springs are made of the same materials as valve springs. Firing pin springs and action design is a compromise to embrace as much reliability as possible to give target shooters the shortest possible lock time and ease of operation, there are trade offs, the main one being fitting new springs as regularly as needed to provide the performance required. All springs have a service life depending on the demands placed on them.
Keith H.

Rich4
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Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Location: Chinchilla

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#63 Postby Rich4 » Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:55 pm

Also car valve springs have radically different demands and performance criteria than Fp springs

Pommy Chris
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#64 Postby Pommy Chris » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:45 pm

KHGS wrote:
Pommy Chris wrote:
KHGS wrote:
Technically you are not correct. Military actions have long firing pin falls (read long locktimes) which does not enhance fine accuracy, but does make them more reliable in the ignition stakes. The shorter the pin fall (faster lock time) the less reliable the firing pin spring will be and the more often they should be replaced. A good rule of thumb is to have the firing pin spring replaced with a new barrel. Usually subtle accuracy issues will begin to occur before misfiring occurs.
All primer manufacturers produce faulty batches of primers from time to time, I have seen faulty batches across all of the major manufacturers.
I have found that small rifle primers do not like excessive preload. I had a customers 223 target rifle come in with a misfiring problem, which persisted after replacing the firing pin spring, long story short, the rifle could be made to misfire with any primer depending on how the primer was seated, it took some time & head scratching to get to the bottom of that one!!!
Keith H.

Point I was making is you can make a spring from same material as valve springs in cars and some do, these springs basically last forever.
Chris


Yes you can and as it is, most quality firing pin springs are made of the same materials as valve springs. Firing pin springs and action design is a compromise to embrace as much reliability as possible to give target shooters the shortest possible lock time and ease of operation, there are trade offs, the main one being fitting new springs as regularly as needed to provide the performance required. All springs have a service life depending on the demands placed on them.
Keith H.

Springs though can last decades made of the right material and you can have reliability and accuracy, not hard and metals exist. Nothing to do with lock time it is money. Spring can be made to last a lifetime that will give accuracy too.
Chris

Rich4
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Location: Chinchilla

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#65 Postby Rich4 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:42 am

I think what Keith meant was that although lock time has nothing to do with longevity of the spring, it does at the pointy end where we live, because military actions have freight train firing pins and they travel interstate to get to the primer, a large percentage of the energy required for ignition is simply inertia, whereas the tighter lock time actions will have a disproportionate amount of energy from the spring, ergo deterioration will be apparent early especially when dealing with the precision required for Fclass, I believe ignition energy to be more important than most give it, I’ve actually seen SD’s of factory ammo tighten while tuning a savage FP spring

Audax
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:48 am

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#66 Postby Audax » Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:16 am

Firstly check the firing pin and spring is lightly lubed only....not grease or thick oil. The spring pressure should be min 26lbs...ideally 32lbs. I can supply a heavier gauge wire spring for the Barnard action which has the effect of increasing trigger release pressure, but still acceptable 6ozs. New springs can be manufactured from silicon chrome wire in any strength if required for extended longevity.

If you have ever had powder spill in the chamber carefully check none has entered the gas port in the bolt as this is ideally situated to drop it into the the front of the firing pin assembly and produce erratic results with any primer....it can be there, but is very hard to detect.....!

Too much headspace on re-sized brass will also cause mis-fires particularly vulnerable is the 308W with the shallow shoulder angle.

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#67 Postby KHGS » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:17 am

Rich4 wrote:I think what Keith meant was that although lock time has nothing to do with longevity of the spring, it does at the pointy end where we live, because military actions have freight train firing pins and they travel interstate to get to the primer, a large percentage of the energy required for ignition is simply inertia, whereas the tighter lock time actions will have a disproportionate amount of energy from the spring, ergo deterioration will be apparent early especially when dealing with the precision required for Fclass, I believe ignition energy to be more important than most give it, I’ve actually seen SD’s of factory ammo tighten while tuning a savage FP spring


100% correct.........some just don't get it and refuse to accept the facts. It is true as I have indicated some springs are better than others and there can be variations within a batch of springs. The thing is to change them out at a reasonable service life before problems raise their head, rather than expect them to last forever. Spring failure is a major cause for telescope inaccuracies when adjusted close to their upper extremities i.e. 1000 yards. most telescopes spend the larger part of their lives set on the shorter ranges, couple this with tapered bases and the springs are highly compressed. So when the scope is wound up to 1000 yards "spring set" reduces spring tension on the erector tube and a "floating" zero can often occur, have a think about that. Springs are great things, but they are not perfect and are subject to how they are cared for. Remember the old military term "ease springs" I do with my telescopes as well as my bolts!
Keith H.
Last edited by KHGS on Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

DannyS
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Contact:

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#68 Postby DannyS » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:18 am

None so blind as he who does not want to see.
You might as well be yourself, everyone else is already taken.

DenisA
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:00 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast, QLD

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#69 Postby DenisA » Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:55 am

Just out of interest, can we list some batch numbers of CCI450s that are giving misfires and then those that don’t? I’ve been getting misfires from batch B09Y22

Pommy Chris
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#70 Postby Pommy Chris » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:49 pm

DenisA wrote:Just out of interest, can we list some batch numbers of CCI450s that are giving misfires and then those that don’t? I’ve been getting misfires from batch B09Y22

My problem ones K22V21
Chris

Pommy Chris
Posts: 441
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#71 Postby Pommy Chris » Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:54 pm

Audax wrote:Firstly check the firing pin and spring is lightly lubed only....not grease or thick oil. The spring pressure should be min 26lbs...ideally 32lbs. I can supply a heavier gauge wire spring for the Barnard action which has the effect of increasing trigger release pressure, but still acceptable 6ozs. New springs can be manufactured from silicon chrome wire in any strength if required for extended longevity.

If you have ever had powder spill in the chamber carefully check none has entered the gas port in the bolt as this is ideally situated to drop it into the the front of the firing pin assembly and produce erratic results with any primer....it can be there, but is very hard to detect.....!

Too much headspace on re-sized brass will also cause mis-fires particularly vulnerable is the 308W with the shallow shoulder angle.

First I dont full length resize just neck. Also I use Marty triggers which dont work like a Barnard trigger so stronger spring should not affect trigger weight. Dont really need a stronger spring just one made of a decent metal which holds its power longer. Springs can be made from metals which dont weaken like Barnard springs do. This said other primers all work, both my gun started having miss fire issues exactly the same time as Betta which coincided with opening a new batch of primers. It is possible both bolt springs suddenly had issues but seems unlikely to me. Before this last box of primers never had a cci missfire before neither has Betta.
Chris

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#72 Postby wsftr » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:24 pm

the 21 century adjustable primer seater is a great tool....if a batch of primers fails to fire then incrementally seating deeper has worked for me. Surprisingly I moved a batch .008" deeper once.

UL1700
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#73 Postby UL1700 » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:33 pm

wsftr wrote:the 21 century adjustable primer seater is a great tool....if a batch of primers fails to fire then incrementally seating deeper has worked for me. Surprisingly I moved a batch .008" deeper once.


Other then when fire forming Dasher's I have never had an issue with a CCI 450 but I have been working my through the same batch of 6000 for a while lol That said I have just ordered a 21st century seater as there is currently 10% off with the voucher code FBOOK10 :D

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#74 Postby wsftr » Sat Nov 02, 2019 6:35 pm

Yeah - I'm not sure what dimension changes slightly but enough with such a hard cup that you can get miss-fires if anything is off i.e. not seated deep enough, too much head space etc.
I love 21 century gear - extremely well made.
I've been through a few batches of primers and also brass and only had the one issue that was occasional and all I did was set them deeper to correct.
Kelblys state to change the FP spring every couple of years as they have seen guns come back into tune with a spring change - but thats SR BR. Out side of a miss fire I'm not sure I can pick up a FP spring issue (what am I looking for). My springs are between 8 and 12 years old now.
My boy just shot 1000 yards today with a load and rifle that hasn't been used for 18 months (sitting around loaded for that long too) and was sitting on a .2 moa vertical group until shot 6 went low and took the group to .7moa. FP spring - dunno.

Old Trev-39
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: Problems with CCI 450s

#75 Postby Old Trev-39 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:41 pm

One of my Barnards is a'98 model. Bolt has always been de-cocked at end of days shooting. Always goes bang with all brands of primers. Do not know how many shots fired.
Cheers,
Trevor.


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