Carbon and the new AR 2209/4350

[superx10]

Hi
Have other shooters noticed the big extra carbon difference with the newer batch of AR 2209 and some 308 shooters are complaining about the newer 2208 as well From my experience, 2209 now seems as dirty as the old 2213 sc.

Would like to hear from anyone who has the same problem and how they are dealing with it using barrels that have 5R rifling.
I am currently using the Aussie Helma carbon remover and bronze brush but can not keep up with the build-up and do not like using bronz brushers with 5R rifling
Thanks in advance

[Steve N]

What batch number of 2209? I've been using mem 5529 for a while and haven't really noticed it any dirtier than usual. It does seem to me be a fair bit slower than some earlier batches though.

[BATattack]

Maybe its your cleaning method / products rather than the powder.

Every person who complains about carbon fouling also seems to have a phobia of bronze brushes.

[superx10]

Hi
Steve N the batch that I am talking about is MAM 5783 purchased late last year from QRA. They changed the formula at some time to meet the European market as it was deemed not to meet their standards.

Bat, you may remember Death of a barrel on this forum from over zealous cleaning a 5 R barrel. Iv been pushing bronze brushes down barrels since 1979 but this is my first 5R, certainly would be a very expensive sport if an F class barrel was damaged by incorrect cleaning early in is life What's your experience?
Sm

[ecomeat]

I owned that barrel that was the star attraction in the “death of a barrel” thread and most of the photos. It’s very much an “over simplification” to just describe it as “overzealous Cleaning”.
As proven by Peter Smith and Dave McNamara with their laboratory standard testing, it was a faulty, non turning cleaning rod combined with an abrasive, AS WELL AS using a bronze brush and cleaning every 25-30 rounds.
Provided the cleaning rod is turning perfectly, I don’t think you could damage the rifling the way that I did no matter how hard you tried. You could certainly wear a barrel “out” by wearing away metal but the “jungle vine” appearance on the lands is only possible when th Bronze brush and abrasive is skipping over the lands and not turning with the twist rate.

[BRETT B]

The new 2209 to me looks like the formula they send to Hogden in America as 4350 ,I have also heard this to be true from a few sources but can not confirm it yet!! I have tried a new batch with the BTI on the front and seen no difference in fouling or speed. It is quite a bit darker but i dont think it fouls any harder than our previous 2209 here in Aus. When We were in Canada myself and Rod Davies were tasked with inspecting everyones barrels with a borescope everyday and yes I can tell you using 4350 the carbon fouling was darker but was by no means any harder to get out than our own 2209. We had multiple 5R barrels on the team and ALL used bronze brushes and i seen no evidence of damage to any 5R barrels with bronze brushes if used correctly. We all had to use a paste after every few hundred rounds to get the stubborn carbon out and then every day after shooting it was bronze brush with a suitable solvent. I use Helmar myself in my Saums and have no trouble with Carbon buildup using 2209, I dont however use Helmar with a Bronze brush!! my personal opinion is I wont use a bronze brush with any water based solvent as it has almost NO lubricating properties!! I use the helmar only on a patch and let it soak then I spray a lubricant down the bore and Bronze brush from there!! Again just my opinion...

[williada]

Guys, I tried something that won't last long because I don't have enough Short Scrub left and its unobtainable now. I like to use a wet patch or a felt slug soaked in Short Scrub to remove powder debris first because it is quick and easy to use, then use Helmar to make sure the job is done. Like Brett, I became reticent using the Helmar carbon remover with the bronze brush because it felt like running a fingernail over a blackboard. Tony of course educated everyone with the death of his barrel.

I admit I also got annoyed at times trying to force through a patch with Helmar applied in the first instance, because the patch would not absorb it effectively as there was a tendency for it to run off the patch and onto the floor creating a mess. Then when running the cleaning rod through the barrel, it wanted to grip the walls at times because of the tendency for insufficient absorption by the patch. I solved this issue by presoaking the patch with Helmar in a separate container so I could achieve a long regular stroke to apply it evenly and prevent wear. It works better on pre soaked felt pads.

I now like to soak with Short Scrub, wipe out and then use the bronze brush dipped in Short Scrub for its lubrication and carbon removing qualities. Next, I patch and clean out with metho to remove oil traces in order to apply Helmar effectively for a soak and wipe out. Remaining carbon is quickly removed. I follow this process up with Helmar copper remover, until I could feel it was squeaky clean with a slow rearward withdrawal of the cleaning rod like the old metho trick we used to use. Haven't seen any copper either with barrels that are run in, and I believe the copper remover also takes out residual carbon. Finally oil (Helmar) to store and anoint the steel pores in the barrel.

Always wash out my bronze brushes in Kero and don't carry residues or crud into the barrel. We don't want to wear a barrel as Tony discovered and as Tony noted let the cleaning rod turn. I could see no reason Hoppes no.9 could not substitute for Short Scrub if the idea was to remove most of the crud, but oil traces would have to be removed for Helmar to do its fine work. Brett's method is fine with pre-soaked patches. I think we both like the Helmar but also like to bronze brush with lubricant.

[BRETT B]

FYI , when using either Helmar or KG I too found that it was not being absorbed by the patch very well and would sometimes bead on the patch and not soak in. I put this down to being water based but To my surprise and by pure chance I changed to a different brand of patch and it soakes up the water based solvents like a sponge and go down the bore far easier!!

[ben_g]

Yes. Certain brand patches won’t absorb the Helmar very well.

I have found that.

Maybe I am a bit rough around the edges but all my barrels be it 5r or not get a good going over of Helmar and the bronze brush after each days shooting and I don’t see detriment to hep well they shoot.

If your not using a bronze brush or an abrasive your probably wasting your time IMO.

[superx10]

Hi
Thanks to those who responded, much useful information from some people who have many years of competition shooting.
Sm

[Brad Y]

Newer batches of 2208 have no issue with carbon fouling. Use Helmar as it says on the bottle. Soak time is important. Bronze brush in a 5r barrel is ok, again as Brett has said dont run a brush down without some form of lubricant (I use ballistol) and Matt Paroz gave a really good suggestion for cleaning rods with 5r barrels that I have jumped onto as well. For the helmar carbon remover, I lay a patch onto a small plate on my gun bench, drop the helmar on and massage the patch around- it absorbs in after a second or two. Worst case hold the patch flat on your palm, apply helmar, rub it into the patch then put the patch on the jag.

[BATattack]

Hi
Steve N the batch that I am talking about is MAM 5783 purchased late last year from QRA. They changed the formula at some time to meet the European market as it was deemed not to meet their standards.

Bat, you may remember Death of a barrel on this forum from over zealous cleaning a 5 R barrel. Iv been pushing bronze brushes down barrels since 1979 but this is my first 5R, certainly would be a very expensive sport if an F class barrel was damaged by incorrect cleaning early in is life What's your experience?
Sm

As per above. Use a good rod, lube with plenty of solvent and make sure the brush is tight enough to rotate with the rifling. Get into it while its warm and you'll be done in half the time. Use JB a little and often.

[neil y]

Well washed cotton fabric like an old sheet or pillow case cut into patches works just fine with Helmar carbon remover. Soaks straight in no mess no waist.

[Brad Y]

Well washed cotton fabric like an old sheet or pillow case cut into patches works just fine with Helmar carbon remover. Soaks straight in no mess no waist.

Can ya put the used ones into a small basket and get the missus to wash them as well mate?

[neil y]

Place them in a small calico bag warm wash and rinse with a little fabric softener works best. Its not nice to make fun of old people.