2209 in 280 Ackley

[AlexE]

Hi Folks,

I note that 2209 is used in SAUMs which have similar capacity to the 280 Ackley. Has anyone tried 09 in this case? If so, does anyone have a start point for 2209 with a 180vld in a 280 Ackley?

Cheerio
Alex

[UL1700]

Never used one but ADI list 2209 for a 175gn bullet starting at 44.7 and upto 50.7 this is as heavy as they go bullet wise for the 280 AI but I'd back of a little and see what happens? Otherwise see if someone on here will model it up on QuickLoad for you.

[GSells]

Hi Folks,

I note that 2209 is used in SAUMs which have similar capacity to the 280 Ackley. Has anyone tried 09 in this case? If so, does anyone have a start point for 2209 with a 180vld in a 280 Ackley?

Cheerio
Alex

Hi Mate , yes 280 ai are similar but not necessarily so ! I use 180 Berger hybrids and 52.6 2209 for a slow load of around 2780 FPS for the shorts . Wild dog I know goes into the 55 gr for 2950 FPS but the go to power for me is 2213sc and start around 59 gr and for a 30” barrel 2940-50 FPS is good for a ran in barrel . Run the slow load first for the first 100 maybe even tune 2720 FPS for a new barrel as it will pick up 80 FPS and then retune with the 2213 sc . Br 2’s give the best performance. 2217 has also been good around the 2880 FPS for a 30-31 “ barrel.

Yes despite the meltdown I had earlier on in the year , the 280 ai and myself are still good friends!
I switched out the .284 w Bartlien on the last day for the Nat Queens and took a gamble and used the 280 ai at 900 and 1000! Went from 17 th to 14 th so something must be working !
The 280 ai is a great cal , but don’t go any faster than 2950 FPS . 2880 FPS seems to be its sweet spot . And with cheap 30-60 or 270 brass why not a 280 ai ? Very similar performance and I have achieved some low Es of around 8 FPS but only a small sample . But still good enough!
But in saying that I now own a Saum ! It will collect dust for a while for the next teams event! I’ll get it going next year.... maybe !
Again, it’s the nut behind the butt! Hope this helps ?

[Tim N]

I was running a 280AI a couple of years ago with 53gns of 2209 behind a 180 VLD.
This was a sweet set up as it shot from the get go, my load of 53gns was supposed to be a fire forming load but it shot so well I left it there at a velocity of around 2870 fps.
I changed to a saum for team purposes otherwise I would most likely have kept the ackley.
2209 was all I used and was happy with that.
Hope it works well for you.

[willow]

2209 certainly works well, you will reach pressure sooner, but I have run 168s and 180s (VLDs) comfortably at 52gr - that gave me about 2815 out of a 32 barrel. I also use 2209 to fireform and 52gr does the job nicely with good accuracy.

[AlexE]

Thank you gentlemen - that all gives me a great starting point

Alex

[Barossa_222]

I know of people using 2217 in the 280AI which I suspect is too slow for the case. I always thought that 2213SC would be the optimum powder in that case giving reasonable case density, pressure and adequate velocity. 2209 I suspect is probably a touch too fast and might peak pressures rather quickly when getting near the top. I have a 30/06AI I am finally starting to play with similarities in case size have me looking at the same powders.

[willow]

I know of people using 2217 in the 280AI which I suspect is too slow for the case. I always thought that 2213SC would be the optimum powder in that case giving reasonable case density, pressure and adequate velocity. 2209 I suspect is probably a touch too fast and might peak pressures rather quickly when getting near the top. I have a 30/06AI I am finally starting to play with similarities in case size have me looking at the same powders.

Ran both 2213 and 2217 in my first barrel. 2217 gave better results but 2209 trumped both of them comfortably for accuracy.

[KHGS]

I know of people using 2217 in the 280AI which I suspect is too slow for the case. I always thought that 2213SC would be the optimum powder in that case giving reasonable case density, pressure and adequate velocity. 2209 I suspect is probably a touch too fast and might peak pressures rather quickly when getting near the top. I have a 30/06AI I am finally starting to play with similarities in case size have me looking at the same powders.

Ran both 2213 and 2217 in my first barrel. 2217 gave better results but 2209 trumped both of them comfortably for accuracy.

For target work, it's not all about an extra 50 or 60fps, consistent accuracy is always trumps!! Another popular myth is that of "loading density must be 87% or more", by saying this I am not suggesting that powder densities of 87% or more are not accurate, just that they are not mandatory. I am a big fan of 2209 where it is applicable, it is a clean burning and flexible powder.
Keith H.

[Gyro]

I know of people using 2217 in the 280AI which I suspect is too slow for the case. I always thought that 2213SC would be the optimum powder in that case giving reasonable case density, pressure and adequate velocity. 2209 I suspect is probably a touch too fast and might peak pressures rather quickly when getting near the top. I have a 30/06AI I am finally starting to play with similarities in case size have me looking at the same powders.

Ran both 2213 and 2217 in my first barrel. 2217 gave better results but 2209 trumped both of them comfortably for accuracy.

For target work, it's not all about an extra 50 or 60fps, consistent accuracy is always trumps!! Another popular myth is that of "loading density must be 87% or more", by saying this I am not suggesting that powder densities of 87% or more are not accurate, just that they are not mandatory. I am a big fan of 2209 where it is applicable, it is a clean burning and flexible powder.
Keith H.

As u say Keith it's accuracy that trumps !!!!

I used 2209 last year in a 6.5x284 and the powder sat way down in the case, but it worked. Used it this year in a 284 Walker and it worked in that one too. BUT in both cartridges it destroyed brass early with loads that it supposedly never should have ?

I can't help thinking that 2209 is sooooooo popular ( even when it's actually way too hot ) because it's just such a bloody good powder and seems to give consistently good results ?

[GSells]

I just picked up my Saum Bart barrel with Larson tuner fitted and a 25” 2nd hand Maddco Saum barrel for testing and leaning the cal . It usually takes me up to 2 years to learn a caliber. The quickest one to learn was the .284 which was 3 weeks . But trying to find Saum brass which I’ve seen at $6 per case and bugger all cases at over $3 per case from US . Components for Saums are like rocking horse poo !!
No one can deny what a great caliber it is . It’s very proven and one can’t even think of international representation without one .
But at what point does cost start taking its toll on the local shooters ? In “Top Loads “ the fastest saum load was at 2930 FPS . Obviously accuracy is more important than any ballistic advantage that maybe gain by 60 FPS . And also , there is just no substitute for Brilliant wind reading . Something after competing in FSA on the weekend, just reminded me of how terribly LAZY I HAVE BECOME in wind skill !

Continuing on , there are a couple of standard face cals including the 284 win variant and the 280 ai that deliver the same performance as a Saum . And especially with the 280 HI ( 30-06 variant ) and 30-06 brass so common and cheap . In my opinion has made a real case for a comeback for all those on a budget and have no desire to go overseas.

I have consistently with 2213 sc achieved low SD’s and with 2209 fast loads 2980 FPS and very accurate slow loads down to 2760 FPS . It doesn’t seemed to fussed at what it shoots ! It’s again taken me nearly 2 years to learn this cal and still have much to learn . But I’ll say I’m getting there , like the rest of my skill in this awesome sport ! With all of its soul , gut wrenching lows , and the incredible highs mixed with form slump frustrations !
My opinion this cal ain’t dead yet !! And it’s because of economics! Money wins every time in the end !

[GSells]

I will also say something that I believe what has transformed this cal in terms of consistency with ignition . Is chamfering the flash holes , helping ignition, in such a long case powder column .

Also 2213 sc seems a little temp sensitive and tuning for winter and summer should be considered. But that’s what is normally down anyhow.

[GSells]

This my short range slow load which seems to be quite accurate. Up to 600 yds 2950 FPS with poor wind reading skills won’t save you and there isn’t a lot of advantages. Except new barrels and retuning again. That’s just my thoughts . But the load in the mag speed photo was literally thrown together of the charge master and no weighing of primers .

75C5B931-9843-4180-8281-B612F092020D.jpeg

DC96218A-BE28-4328-A599-4CA90FB26E1E.jpeg

Admittedly it’s only 5 shots for an indication! But a good load just doesn’t go on the blink and it shows itself straight up that it’s happy !

It then achieved this pic below at 500 yds with some very ordinary , lazy wind skill of yours truly, which with a .308 I had up to 5 moa wind on !
In summer when I tuned this it was 2780 FPS , so I drop of 20 FPS for 2209 (52.6 gr ) which is what I would expect for this powder.
I had a good friend of mine comment “might as well go .284 w ! “ True in which I own 2 x .284’s one which helped win a Trans Tasman teams.
But can a straight .284 be consistently throttled up mid 2950 FPS without destroying case for the longs and then downloaded slow for the shorts to conserve barrels ? My opinion, it’s the best of both worlds and the Saum can do this too! Very well actually from what I’ve seen.

I haven’t yet mucked around with 168’s at potentially 3000 FPS for the shorts . Another avenue to maybe venture ?

[Julian D]

I just picked up my Saum Bart barrel with Larson tuner fitted and a 25” 2nd hand Maddco Saum barrel for testing and leaning the cal . It usually takes me up to 2 years to learn a caliber. The quickest one to learn was the .284 which was 3 weeks . )

SAUM takes about 3 weeks, one of the reasons I think they are so popular is they are so easy to tune.
Did a speed test & found 55.8 of 2209 gave the best ES, and stuck with it, as the barrel sped up it went through 4 speed zones, 2890, 2920, 2950 & finished on 2970fps. The only noticeable difference was it punched them a bit higher as the speed increased. Still grouped incredibly well.

I ran a Labradar for about 3 weeks to monitor speed increases, and accuracy never changed. Shot a Queens lead up without dropping a point ( even if it was a shortened program, and went overseas with it & did fairly well ) So the proof was in the pudding.

The other thing I noticed was not all SAUM's are created equally, which I believe can be the difference between some performing fantastic right off the bat, and some having to work fairly hard for results.....
I measured a prominent shooter here in Oz's OAL cartridge & found it to be nearly 3mm longer than mine with aprox. the same amount of jump, so maybe reamer design may differ between gunsmiths.

I am by no means an expert, some of you guys have been playing with these for years, but from a new set of eyes, I found out some things which might be helpful.

Message me Graham if you want to know what worked for me, Like I said I am no expert, but I will share everything I know about the calibre.

[Peterla]

Hi Julian
You mention you have seen a speed up and I had one in my new 100 round SAUM
It was running 55.7 09 for a 2960 node and we were doing a 15 shot string with my lab radar setup
The first shot was 2900 clean barrel. Then 2950 for sighter 2.
By the end of the 15 shots, I was doing 3010 fps. What a speed up. Now running 54.2 for that same speed
Mine also had a LARSEN tuner. Finally made one for myself