Tuning Basics 101

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Peterla
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Location: Barossa Sth Australia

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#16 Postby Peterla » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:09 pm

Hi Brett
I use tuners but will not mention how I tuner them apart from saying they are on my barrel when I do my develeopment acting as a node widener.

The I load 2 ladder test and head out to 1000Yards on a really nice day.
1 of those ladder tests is 15 th jam and the other is 15 th jumped.

Most of the time you will see a nice pattern on the target and be able to say this barrel loves Jump of Jam.
Then run with that outcome and head into group testing to make sure I am in the centre of the node using a round robin 5 shot group test.

Once I have made sure I am in the centre of the node and know that speed I then fine tune with the tuner .

Easy to get a SAUM humming within about 60 rounds and make note of the speed as barrels do speed up and thow you way out of the node.
My last saum did this between ther 80th shot and the 100th shot gaining 80 fps. Had to drop the power back by around 1 grain.
Lab radars are a asset to see this happen and I just happen to catch it while we were shooting a 20 shot string at 900 Meters

BRETT B
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Location: PERTH

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#17 Postby BRETT B » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:38 pm

Gyro wrote:Great idea Brett, but if the top guys ( yourself included ) don't wanna talk about the stuff that really matters then are we stuck with lots of waffle from guys who aint TOP shooters ? Rob Kerridge.

BTW u Ozzies r waaay ahead of us over ere.

Yes I'm already sounding flippant. I just get bored easily so I'm sorry.

I'm not anti tuners. I'm anti BS.

There's plenty of shooters out there with more experience than me so I hope they chip in here .....

I notice MattP mentioned the "compromised platform" in his answer to the question posted recently when someone asked the top shooters from your recent Nats for some feedback. Very wise words I thought. I shall step back now.


Gyro , I can tell you for sure that there is no Special "Fairy Dust" that the TOP guys use!! The stuff that really matters is actually the Basics which still a lot of people still don't get!! They get confused with all the so called miracle tune options you can find on the NET and end up either burning out a barrel trying to tune it or purchase the WRONG CRITICAL COMPONENT which will COMPROMISE their PLATFORM and they will never get the results they were hoping for. I know this because I myself was in this boat 5 yrs ago !! I was too stubborn to realize that some of the components I had chosen to run a 7mm simply was not a good combination to achieve a HIGH level of success . Luckily for me a few quick component change suggestions from Matt P put me on the correct path and the rest is history. The phrase " Use what works NOT what you like" sticks in my head until this day and this is what I want to pass onto shooters who are wanting help.
Not everyone Wants Help!! Not everyone needs help!! but I bet there are a few on here that do so ask your questions and see what happens from there..
BRETT BUNYAN F CLASS OPEN SHOOTER W.A.

cheech
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#18 Postby cheech » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:24 am

BRETT B wrote:
Gyro wrote:Great idea Brett, but if the top guys ( yourself included ) don't wanna talk about the stuff that really matters then are we stuck with lots of waffle from guys who aint TOP shooters ? Rob Kerridge.

BTW u Ozzies r waaay ahead of us over ere.

Yes I'm already sounding flippant. I just get bored easily so I'm sorry.

I'm not anti tuners. I'm anti BS.

There's plenty of shooters out there with more experience than me so I hope they chip in here .....

I notice MattP mentioned the "compromised platform" in his answer to the question posted recently when someone asked the top shooters from your recent Nats for some feedback. Very wise words I thought. I shall step back now.


Gyro , I can tell you for sure that there is no Special "Fairy Dust" that the TOP guys use!! The stuff that really matters is actually the Basics which still a lot of people still don't get!! They get confused with all the so called miracle tune options you can find on the NET and end up either burning out a barrel trying to tune it or purchase the WRONG CRITICAL COMPONENT which will COMPROMISE their PLATFORM and they will never get the results they were hoping for. I know this because I myself was in this boat 5 yrs ago !! I was too stubborn to realize that some of the components I had chosen to run a 7mm simply was not a good combination to achieve a HIGH level of success . Luckily for me a few quick component change suggestions from Matt P put me on the correct path and the rest is history. The phrase " Use what works NOT what you like" sticks in my head until this day and this is what I want to pass onto shooters who are wanting help.
Not everyone Wants Help!! Not everyone needs help!! but I bet there are a few on here that do so ask your questions and see what happens from there..


Brett you have been a bloody legend giving me and my mate a lot of advise on our new 260 AI builds and we have had a good start to our development, thanks to you we had somewhere to start and it’s progressing well in a short time
Thanks again

Gyro
Posts: 764
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#19 Postby Gyro » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:36 am

I totally hear u about the basics Brett. If the platform aint right ( and just quietly I've seen a few platforms that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole ) then the best it's gonna get is some good shooting in the easy conditions - when the operator has the time to hold thier mouth just right to get the gun to shoot straight - then it's all downhill when the conditions get tough because that's when u REALLY need a 'forgiving' platform that doesn't need a whole seperate focus to drive properly. My gun drives itself so all I need to do is watch the conditions and touch off a shot when the flags r right. Works 4 me, but Lord knows I aint where I wanna be yet. I'm just happy with progress after 10 years trying.

But anyway, what about just aiming for your "method 1" with the jammed boolit ? Sounds like a good quick and dirty method. Jamming is/was the default starting place for a great many shooters ? How often do u reckon that a jam is NOT the best starting place ?

Tim N
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Location: Branxton NSW

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#20 Postby Tim N » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:58 am

[quote="Gyro"][quote="BATattack"]Its really the tip of the iceberg isnt it Brett!?

Unfortunately there are some in this game who just throw a lot of money at it, then wait for somebody else to advise them how to drive their flash gear ! Over here especially ! Did I just say that ?

If only it was so simple !

Hey that works for me :D
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training. Archilochos 680-645 BC

Rich4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Location: Chinchilla

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#21 Postby Rich4 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:35 am

It may well not be “fairy dust” but to me without a degree, it kinda seems like it!
I just think I’m getting a handle on something and then read Williada’s writing and instantly feel like I’m in kindy again :shock:
In any discipline or sport for that matter we keep coming back to fundamentals executed perfectly for success, however without a coach the trick is winnowing what matters and what doesn’t (also shooter VS gear) and I suspect competition will help quickest there, so what’s written here by those who are successful is invaluable and appreciated more than I think they know, thanks to you all =D>

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#22 Postby KHGS » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:09 am

Gyro wrote:I totally hear u about the basics Brett. If the platform aint right ( and just quietly I've seen a few platforms that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole ) then the best it's gonna get is some good shooting in the easy conditions - when the operator has the time to hold thier mouth just right to get the gun to shoot straight - then it's all downhill when the conditions get tough because that's when u REALLY need a 'forgiving' platform that doesn't need a whole seperate focus to drive properly. My gun drives itself so all I need to do is watch the conditions and touch off a shot when the flags r right. Works 4 me, but Lord knows I aint where I wanna be yet. I'm just happy with progress after 10 years trying.

But anyway, what about just aiming for your "method 1" with the jammed boolit ? Sounds like a good quick and dirty method. Jamming is/was the default starting place for a great many shooters ? How often do u reckon that a jam is NOT the best starting place ?


Has & does work for me!! =D> =D> =D>
Keith H.

Quick
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#23 Postby Quick » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:36 am

I will say that I've followed Bretts teachings since he came back to FO in 2013. A few of us went threw alot of different methods until we do what we do now.

The motto of keep it simple works. Then I apply the fundementals of FO and BR when I got into F/TR from FO and believe its served me well in getting my current F/TR rifle aswell as it does. Im tuning using method 2 and will say that if you don't have a labradar for use when testing, your going to waste alot of money, barrel life and time. I've learnt so much in the last 18 months since Ive gone hardcore F/TR.

Im a firm believer in that its not just your barrel tune, but the whole rifle package on the mound needs to work in harmony. Applying the basics to how you set your gear up, choosing the right rear and front bags for your stock and calibre choice can make a world of difference. Getting the right gear the first time can make life much easier.

If only we knew 5 years ago what we know now....

I'll be following this thread with interest.
Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR & F-S
7mm F-Open Shooter.

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#24 Postby KHGS » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:04 pm

Rich4 wrote:It may well not be “fairy dust” but to me without a degree, it kinda seems like it!
I just think I’m getting a handle on something and then read Williada’s writing and instantly feel like I’m in kindy again :shock:
In any discipline or sport for that matter we keep coming back to fundamentals executed perfectly for success, however without a coach the trick is winnowing what matters and what doesn’t (also shooter VS gear) and I suspect competition will help quickest there, so what’s written here by those who are successful is invaluable and appreciated more than I think they know, thanks to you all =D>


A couple of points that I believe to be important...........do not "overthink" what you are doing. Don't get tooooo carried away with technicalities. Be very brutal with yourself when analysing your results, very often your technique can be the weak link.
Keith H.

AlanF
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Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#25 Postby AlanF » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:44 pm

I won't attempt to add any technical advice to this thread because my tuning methods are pretty basic, namely ladder testing and occasional experimentation with seating depth. What I would like to comment on however is how things have changed during my time in F-Open. When I started shooting at Queens level in 2005, things were very different. Field sizes were smaller, typical calibres were 6BR and 6.5-284, with an odd assortment of others. The winner was the one with the best (or least worst) all round package of equipment, skill, temperament etc. That's still true, but I think its reasonable to say that equipment performance was a less important part of the package then, and it has continued to increase in importance between then and now. What that suggests is that it will continue on that path into the future. So the reality is that anyone with ambitions of consistent success at the top level must now put major emphasis on equipment performance. The subject of this thread is accuracy tuning. The ability to do it well has become the single most important skill for success. So of all the time and effort and money you spend on this sport, make sure that tuning and testing gets a healthy slice of the pie. Taking that further, I've only had an occasional flirtation with barrel tuners in the past, but there are now enough of them on the rifles of very successful shooters to say they are worth having, perhaps even a must have?

Gyro
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Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#26 Postby Gyro » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:43 am

As Alan has thankfully reminded me , the subject is tuning. I just do get sidetracked on my "platform fetish" so easily, cos that's what I know and do - build radical stocks for my toys. Always have. And sometimes they work bla bla bla ...

Tell ya'll something that took me a while to cotton onto is why my first range of the day in the cooler morning temps was so often full of vertical ( all u old hands know this well ). Because the ammo was cold. Put it in your pocket a little before u start shooting to warm it up a little and it will shoot LOTS better. Even with 2209, which is supposedly so tolerant of temp changes ?

At our Queens/Nationals this year I remembered to do that on one of the mornings and the gun shot like a bloody laser. Next morning I did it and at 300 the flags were just going everywhere ( at Trentham ) and I got a 58 I think. And I was happy with that. The following day it was 600 yards first up and the flags were just hanging down doing nothing ! I thought "I'm gonna cream this" but started shooting and the vertical was shite. I couldn't work it out as the conditions were perfect and them boolits were going up and down and everywhere. I still got a 60 with a few centers. Anyways, I got back to the chalk board ( we where manual marking ) and put my hand in my pocket and all my warmed rounds were still in there ! Bastard. I had forgotten to transfer them across to my ammo box and had instead been using cold ones. Duh. Lesson learned.

So now I'm kicking around some ideas for a portable ammo holder with a heater on board to keep the ammo at a STABLE TEMP.

I got caught out at our 2016 Nats with cold weather and a gun that shot like a dog except for the one warm day we had. Good gun, not really hard conditions, just a dumb operator. You'd think I would have learn't my lesson. That was with 2208 and a 308 and I guess I was on the edge of the node ? Yes I'm a slow learner !

That's why Brett I was curious about your method 1 ? I really do believe more and more that temp changes have more impact on tune than many may realise ? Know what I mean ? Cheers Rob K. I better go to work grrrrr.

KHGS
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:46 am
Location: Cowra NSW

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#27 Postby KHGS » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:59 am

AlanF wrote:I won't attempt to add any technical advice to this thread because my tuning methods are pretty basic, namely ladder testing and occasional experimentation with seating depth. What I would like to comment on however is how things have changed during my time in F-Open. When I started shooting at Queens level in 2005, things were very different. Field sizes were smaller, typical calibres were 6BR and 6.5-284, with an odd assortment of others. The winner was the one with the best (or least worst) all round package of equipment, skill, temperament etc. That's still true, but I think its reasonable to say that equipment performance was a less important part of the package then, and it has continued to increase in importance between then and now. What that suggests is that it will continue on that path into the future. So the reality is that anyone with ambitions of consistent success at the top level must now put major emphasis on equipment performance. The subject of this thread is accuracy tuning. The ability to do it well has become the single most important skill for success. So of all the time and effort and money you spend on this sport, make sure that tuning and testing gets a healthy slice of the pie. Taking that further, I've only had an occasional flirtation with barrel tuners in the past, but there are now enough of them on the rifles of very successful shooters to say they are worth having, perhaps even a must have?


A must have?.....Maybe so Alan, I certainly don't dispute that they work, but the presence of them does not guarantee success for those using them. They can be a distraction for some. We all tend to have sheeple tendencies and will often follow trends not all of which are bad, so a word of warning to the newby following this thread, beware of "crutches" which can come in many forms.
Keith H.

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#28 Postby wsftr » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:56 am

for those that use lab radars - do you have numbers comparing morning vs afternoon shoots?

wsftr
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#29 Postby wsftr » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:23 am

I reckon the trickiest bit for tuning 101 is knowing what the holes in paper are telling you and making decisions from there. After that its the same steps that we all do - stick components together and go shoot them.

I definitely agree to get the utmost out of the shoot the platform needs to be right. I do think this is also where we perpetuate the thought that you have to spend thousands day one.

IMO tuning 101 is taking what you have and making it work. I started with a Howa varminter re-barrelled, wicked as angle in the toe, screwed on plate so the stock would slide in a cheap rest. I shot out more spotters than I can think of at 300 and cut my teeth on reading the wind with that rig.
Even with all the money in the world you have to be methodical to refine the loads and setup to extract the utmost.

Selecting a custom barrel is a 101 step IMO

GSells
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Location: Qld

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#30 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:30 am

I can get up to 50 FPS difference in speeds between 20 deg winter and 43 deg summers .
Rob , I warm my bullets up in the sun and even go one further and try and warm the barrel up in the sun . I’ve even poured boiling hot water over my barrel pointing downwards . Note not through it! But down over it .


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