Tuning Basics 101

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Gyro
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#46 Postby Gyro » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:40 am

[quote="Wal86"]After 39 posts no mention of the importance of primers and ignition?
basic 101?

Primers and ignition ? That pommie guy Laurie has done a lot of tests on some of this stuff and put it out there for us to read. Good on that man. One of the problems with these tests to me is how many variables there actually are. There are actually LOTS of them. I would call that problematic.

I noticed how at some recent big benchrest shoot virtually everybody was running the same powder and primer mmmmm

Recently a story appeared online about a couple of Big League 1000 yard BR shooters in the US had shot very small groups over their comp season and it was noted they had done it with "multiple barrels". The implication given was that it suggested these two guys must be very good at tuning ( I wish they shot at my club ). And did they run tuners ? Very interesting I thought because ya hear stories of the top guys who "supposedly" spend large amounts of money and time buying and trying multiple barrels till they get a 'hummer'. Maybe that's just gossip in todays world because todays barrels are so good ?

I noticed one of Matts groups on Hexa the other day at 900 yards with some crazy tight vertical. I was thinking of giving up shooting after I saw that but then felt a lot better when I looked on Hexa again a couple of hours later at his 1000 yard group. That group was a LOT like what my gun does ( on a good day ). But why didn't Matt get to the 1000 yard mound, just look at the conditions, then crank on the right setting on his tuner and nail it ?

But seriously, you Oz shooters have clearly got a very good 'culture' over there whereby the many really good shooters are sharing and discussing their findings with each other ( yes I'm sure there's some friction somewhere between some, because there always is when you get a group of people together trying to all get along well ) I was at Belmont 3-4 years back and I noticed MarkF seemed way more interested in helping and seeing other younger shooters do well than his own campaign. Very cool.

I see above the Big Dog has appeared on this thread ! Cheers Rob K.

wsftr
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#47 Postby wsftr » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:04 pm

Wal86 wrote:After 39 posts no mention of the importance of primers and ignition?
basic 101?

Primers
seating depth
neck tension
- should all be worked out in the first 25 rnds of the breaking in process, bullet holes in paper (group shapes/and their shot order) are not random...

Another process that is overlooked is cleaning regime and consistency...

Just a thought,


C'mon Wal86 - whats the 101 process to land at primers, seating depth and neck tension with as few shots as possible.
most know already those things are important....

For those that use a lab radar - how about throwing up some 101 examples of what you did, saw and how it influenced your choices.

If its all kept at 101 no trade secrets need to be given away - Brett started this to help those with 101 questions.
I subscribe to the Cortina method and I have included a link to that detail already.

BRETT B
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#48 Postby BRETT B » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:01 pm

Gyro wrote:I totally hear u about the basics Brett. If the platform aint right ( and just quietly I've seen a few platforms that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole ) then the best it's gonna get is some good shooting in the easy conditions - when the operator has the time to hold thier mouth just right to get the gun to shoot straight - then it's all downhill when the conditions get tough because that's when u REALLY need a 'forgiving' platform that doesn't need a whole seperate focus to drive properly. My gun drives itself so all I need to do is watch the conditions and touch off a shot when the flags r right. Works 4 me, but Lord knows I aint where I wanna be yet. I'm just happy with progress after 10 years trying.

But anyway, what about just aiming for your "method 1" with the jammed boolit ? Sounds like a good quick and dirty method. Jamming is/was the default starting place for a great many shooters ? How often do u reckon that a jam is NOT the best starting place ?


Gyro , Jamming was very popular for a long time in the early days as VLDs were very popular and most agree they tend to like a jam. With the introduction of Hybrid style Bullets it has given you the option now of jumping bullets and getting great accuracy and consistency. I have seen World class accuracy from Both Jammed and Jumped Bullets so either method will work. I dont think there is a time when you would say DON'T Jam a bullet but you need to consider your components if you want to go down the jammed path. Some projectiles Jam easily and stay there if you have to extract a live round!! Also I would tend to stick with a cartridge that has a wide speed window and strong case head as powder charge and primers are your only real source of tuning vertical out with a Jammed load (unless you have a tuner, Yes I said Tuner, NO im not talking about it!! ). A quick example is STD 284, 180 hybrid and 2209 @2820 with 15 Jam. Your ES is great but got lots of Vert!! you cant really go much harder with powder charge cos the cartridge cant take much more so you have to reduce to find the lower node and reduce vertical!! This would be a good case to try a jump instead and stay at same speed and not kill your cases.
BRETT BUNYAN F CLASS OPEN SHOOTER W.A.

BRETT B
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#49 Postby BRETT B » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:28 pm

bruce moulds wrote:assuming that your loading process is "tuned", it would seem that there are 2 main basic tuning tools to work with.
they are bullet relationship to rifling, and powder charge.
when both of these things come together in the best balance, the load is tuned to the rifle.
most people seem to start with powder charges, adjusting them until best accuracy can be obtained that way.
they keep seating depth the same, as it is better to only adjust 1 thing at a time.
they then go to adjusting relationship of bullet to lands by adjusting seating depth.
I will often try different seating depths while running in the barrel, to compare jump vs jam for a starting point.
common practice might be to start jammed hard, as pressures will reduce as coal becomes shorter.
max jam can be established by letting the camming power of the action seat a bullet as the bolt is closed.
I have often wondered if starting with seating depth or starting with powder charges is a better way to go.
if you are ladder testing, with increasing powder charges, the most accurate seating depth could offer some advantage.
guys test in different ways, and this might have some effect on how you tune.
if you do seating depth first, then powder charge second, it might pay to retest seating depth at the best powder charge.
and then of course you start on neck tension.
is the rifle still in tune?
what has happened with throat erosion while all of this was going on?
what is your velocity s.d.?
at this stage we have not yet thought about a barrel tuner.
bruce.


Bruce , Starting with Powder charge and Primers to get your chosen Cartridge/Bullet combination into the middle of its realistic speed window with good ignition is where I would start from scratch. everything else is mute until this is achieved in terms of accuracy and consistency as a Basic starting point.
BRETT BUNYAN F CLASS OPEN SHOOTER W.A.

BRETT B
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#50 Postby BRETT B » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:10 am

Neck Tension!! As a general rule ,2 thou Tension is a good starting point for F class and in most cases will yield very good results. Yes you can experiment with less and more but I would leave that until the pointy end of your tuning.

Primers!! These little things can be tricky at times because there are so many factors that can effect the performance of a primer. Firing pin weight,travel,pertrusion,diameter, spring strength,bent,primer crush can all effect ignition. Even too much headspace can cause ignition issues especially with small primer cases . If you are having serious issues get your gunsmith to inspect your action assembly before you go out looking for a miracle primer.

If your chasing better ES/SD numbers the only option really is to try a few different Brands and see if your Action prefers one over the other. CCI or Federal GM should yield good results in most actions and cartridges and are a good starting point as a general rule. S&B, Remington and even Winchester have been known to also give good results so dont rule them out. Luckily primers are still quite cheap so try a few until you find one that works for you.
If your chasing VERY LOW ES/SD numbers for High Level competition then invest in a quality priming tool. There are many good brands out there now some even with adjustable crush that can yield surprising results. If your happy running the cheap generic ones just be aware that yes they do work BUT they can wear out very quickly and result in primers seated crooked so update them regularly.Primers need to be seated correctly for a constant uniform ignition!! There is no point spending thousands on a new rifle and expect good results if your using a 10yr old priming tool that is flogged to death!!

Should I clean primer pockets?? This question has been debated for years and it don't matter what forum you read there is always someone who says I shot a PERFECT SCORE last week and I dont clean my primer pockets!! Well the choice is yours but I stick to the rule that very few things in rifles work when they are dirty so keeping them clean can't really hurt.
BRETT BUNYAN F CLASS OPEN SHOOTER W.A.

Gyro
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#51 Postby Gyro » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:57 am

Lordy lordy I could write a book about this 'stuff' ( it might be a whole lot of crap tho lol ) because ya need to, to properly work through the material involved !!!!!

And yes I get bored way too easily with the stoopid people. And the banal comments ........ my wife tells me I'm a snob but I'm just impatient ......... woe is me.

Looong ago I was looking online ( as ya do ) when I found a forum and I noticed some really good nitty-gritty stuff about firearms accuracy. It was obviously written by some really thoughtful clever folk who were into taking accuracy things really seriously and they were just discussing ideas. They were not stoopid people so I really liked what I was reading and copied it all off and stapled it all into a little folder so I could more easily study it at my leisure.

The thread was titled "RECOIL AND STOCK DESIGN".

Alas, ya don't get anything even remotely like that on here anymore and I alluded to that fact just very recently on here and it was suggested it's because the "keyboard warriors .... "

But it's ok, there's still alcohol. And summer will be here soon and I can get out more. Even play in my shed more. And shoot more.

And I've just bought a Sig Sauer 2400ABS LRF to use to play with my long range critter-shooting toys. That's Sig's a very cool toy. Litz I believe is well involved with that. Now he's a clever guy who has done a lot for us, but still some wanna bag him on here I notice, but I musn't be negative.

And if I wanna really good yarn about the serious accuracy stuff I can still ring my mate and we can talk for ages because he's a thorough-minded thoughtful bastard like me. And he will reckon it's "this" and I will say nah I reckon it's this part here that's actually way more important and on it goes .....
Last edited by Gyro on Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:03 am, edited 2 times in total.

Gyro
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#52 Postby Gyro » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:58 am

Crikey Brett I see your piece has just come thru.

bruce moulds
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#53 Postby bruce moulds » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:13 am

looking for this velocity window is easy with a labradar.
if you don't have one, a ladder test might be the quickest way.
this has the bonus that every barrel has a slightly different velocity window.
in some ways doing it without knowing velocity is a good thing, as preconceptions are out of the equation.
if the 284 shoots best in a window of about 2750, it is better to go with that than a lesser accuracy at 2820.
it is my belief that guys chase higher velocity looking for free lunches at the price of accuracy, and fail yo put enough focus on learning to read the wind.
this is slowly changing.
I can remember when guys were trying to run 284s at 2900, and 280 ackleys at warp speed and were blaming brass for being weak rather than taking heed of basic pressure management .
in actual fact, if you are talking the number 101, first considerations should be safety, followed by function, as accuracy as a priority comes third to those things.
here is another advantage of the ladder test, as in is about the best way to find a safe max.
then start using the chronograph.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Gyro
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#54 Postby Gyro » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:06 am

http://www.ozfclass.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... f6b1874354

Can somebody help with providing a better link because all of the words "Recoil and stock design" are highlighted ?

That link lads is from the good old days on this site. And guess what I believe : it all starts from THE PLATFORM.

If the platform and/or your technique aint right ( or consistent ) all your tests will have very little meaning. Pretty bloody obvious I would have thought ?

RDavies
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#55 Postby RDavies » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:05 am

Gyro wrote:
Wal86 wrote:
I noticed how at some recent big benchrest shoot virtually everybody was running the same powder and primer mmmmm

.

Yes, but if it was a 1000yd BR shoot it would be very different.
For short range bench rest, they can shoot groups under the ones (less than .100" at 1000yds) with a high enough ES/SD that would be seeing us get 4s at 1000yds. In short range BR they still often throw powder weights, or at the most, use a charge master as ES/SD is not an issue out to a few hundred meters as long as you are in tune.
Once we get to the long ranges we have the added complication of needing accuracy AND tight ES/SD. In this case we need to test different primers whenever we get a new gun or calibre combination, to bring our ES/SD down for 1000yds.

RDavies
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#56 Postby RDavies » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:18 am

BRETT B wrote:
Primers!! These little things can be tricky at times because there are so many factors that can effect the performance of a primer. Firing pin weight,travel,pertrusion,diameter, spring strength,bent,primer crush can all effect ignition. Even too much headspace can cause ignition issues especially with small primer cases . If you are having serious issues get your gunsmith to inspect your action assembly before you go out looking for a miracle primer.


Exactly right, each firing pin/spring/fall combination will prefer a different primer. Not only that, but as your firing pin loses tension over time, it might start preferring a different primer than before. Some actions such as BATs apparently have a lighter firing pin strike than the Barnards and often prefer a different primer. With so many in Oz running the standard Barnard/284,SAUM/2209 combination, we have almost given up on testing primers as the BR2 has been the best in 90% of cases. A few shooters I know have some different actions (Kelbly, BAT, Stiller) which often worked better with Fed 210s. I think I have Australia's biggest stash of PMC LR primers, but to get these to work well, I have to replace my firing pin spring every few years.

KHGS
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#57 Postby KHGS » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:49 am

GSells wrote:
RDavies wrote:
GSells wrote:Well Haha, going back to pre teams banter .... QLD , THE BEST STATE ! :lol:

Depending on the range. Look for an upcoming post in this series soon.

I’m guessing this has to do with wind angular torque or wind shear at a Qld range ?
That will be a good thread to discuss, as it’s a very tuff range for especially when the wind comes from the left and the lower number targets . But till then !
It still is one of the best and the hardest. Anyway off topic !


You haven’t shot Canberra yet have you?
Keith H.

KHGS
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#58 Postby KHGS » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:09 am

[quote="bruce moulds"]looking for this velocity window is easy with a labradar.
if you don't have one, a ladder test might be the quickest way.
this has the bonus that every barrel has a slightly different velocity window.
in some ways doing it without knowing velocity is a good thing, as preconceptions are out of the equation.
if the 284 shoots best in a window of about 2750, it is better to go with that than a lesser accuracy at 2820.
it is my belief that guys chase higher velocity looking for free lunches at the price of accuracy, and fail yo put enough focus on learning to read the wind.
this is slowly changing.
I can remember when guys were trying to run 284s at 2900, and 280 ackleys at warp speed and were blaming brass for being weak rather than taking heed of basic pressure management .
in actual fact, if you are talking the number 101, first considerations should be safety, folklowed by function, as accuracy as a priority comes third to those things.
here is another advantage of the ladder test, as in is about the best way to find a safe max.
then start using the chronograph.
Bruce (quote)

Well said Bruce, far too often the use of a chronograph causes the uninitiated to focus too much on velocity and miss the most important things in load tuning. Having said that, a chronograph if used correctly is invaluable for load tuning. IMO the novice tends to focus too much on velocity then rely on a tuner to refine accuracy, for what it is worth, I think this is the wrong approach.
Keith H.

RDavies
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#59 Postby RDavies » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:09 am

AlanF wrote:It'll be great to have you aboard Rod. I think separate threads would be best. How about starting with a Gear and Mound Setup 101?

I will do. First I would like to get to a range in the next few weeks and get some pictures of the common , simple mistakes I see regularly.
For now though, with shooting in Belmont, with its deep spongy grass, it is a fairly safe bet that the front runners and local top shots will have 2 inch spiked boards under their rear bags. (Legal at Belmont)

Gyro
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#60 Postby Gyro » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:47 am

RDavies wrote:
AlanF wrote:It'll be great to have you aboard Rod. I think separate threads would be best. How about starting with a Gear and Mound Setup 101?

I will do. First I would like to get to a range in the next few weeks and get some pictures of the common , simple mistakes I see regularly.
For now though, with shooting in Belmont, with its deep spongy grass, it is a fairly safe bet that the front runners and local top shots will have 2 inch spiked boards under their rear bags. (Legal at Belmont)


Amazing. At last, a little sniff of the stuff that matters.
Thank you Rod !!! I was about ready to turn to strong drink from reading the above, which BTW is telling many of us absolutely nothing new. Sorry to be rude.
I’m taking a break from here till next month because I need one, so regards Rob Kerridge


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