Tuning Basics 101

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

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RDavies
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#61 Postby RDavies » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:16 pm

KHGS wrote:
bruce moulds wrote:looking for this velocity window is easy with a labradar.
if you don't have one, a ladder test might be the quickest way.
this has the bonus that every barrel has a slightly different velocity window.
in some ways doing it without knowing velocity is a good thing, as preconceptions are out of the equation.
if the 284 shoots best in a window of about 2750, it is better to go with that than a lesser accuracy at 2820.
it is my belief that guys chase higher velocity looking for free lunches at the price of accuracy, and fail yo put enough focus on learning to read the wind.
this is slowly changing.
I can remember when guys were trying to run 284s at 2900, and 280 ackleys at warp speed and were blaming brass for being weak rather than taking heed of basic pressure management .
in actual fact, if you are talking the number 101, first considerations should be safety, folklowed by function, as accuracy as a priority comes third to those things.
here is another advantage of the ladder test, as in is about the best way to find a safe max.
then start using the chronograph.
Bruce (quote)

Well said Bruce, far too often the use of a chronograph causes the uninitiated to focus too much on velocity and miss the most important things in load tuning. Having said that, a chronograph if used correctly is invaluable for load tuning. IMO the novice tends to focus too much on velocity then rely on a tuner to refine accuracy, for what it is worth, I think this is the wrong approach.
Keith H.

I agree that shooters should not get hung up too much on reaching a certain velocity (though a velocity range is a good place to start). Matt and myself have had extremely accurate 284s which for reasons not relevant here had nodes lower than normal. I certainly like using a crony when doing the ladder test though so that you easily find out what speed your barrels node is. Then when your barrel goes through the velocity jump, or you adjust seating depths, change primers, or get a cold snap like we have coming, you have a velocity reference point to bring your load back to.
When you know what speed the node is, you only need somewhere to fire a few crony shots and don't need a nice flat range with good sighting conditions for testing on target.

GSells
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Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:04 pm
Location: Qld

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#62 Postby GSells » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:29 pm

RDavies wrote:
Gyro wrote:
Wal86 wrote:
I noticed how at some recent big benchrest shoot virtually everybody was running the same powder and primer mmmmm

.

Yes, but if it was a 1000yd BR shoot it would be very different.
For short range bench rest, they can shoot groups under the ones (less than .100" at 1000yds) with a high enough ES/SD that would be seeing us get 4s at 1000yds. In short range BR they still often throw powder weights, or at the most, use a charge master as ES/SD is not an issue out to a few hundred meters as long as you are in tune.
Once we get to the long ranges we have the added complication of needing accuracy AND tight ES/SD. In this case we need to test different primers whenever we get a new gun or calibre combination, to bring our ES/SD down for 1000yds.

For me I’ve changed primer for the .280 ai just being winter . The cooler weather changed things . And the Feds worked better .

GSells
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#63 Postby GSells » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:34 pm

KHGS wrote:
GSells wrote:
RDavies wrote:Depending on the range. Look for an upcoming post in this series soon.

I’m guessing this has to do with wind angular torque or wind shear at a Qld range ?
That will be a good thread to discuss, as it’s a very tuff range for especially when the wind comes from the left and the lower number targets . But till then !
It still is one of the best and the hardest. Anyway off topic !


You haven’t shot Canberra yet have you?
Keith H.

Lol! I enjoy tuff ranges . Maybe not at the time lol! But I hope to get around all of the rifle ranges ! Enjoy Belmont if the SW comes in ! Will he interesting to see if you Keith had the same problems that I did with eld’s at the longs ? Best of luck too mate !

ben_g
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#64 Postby ben_g » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:16 pm

KHGS wrote:
GSells wrote:
RDavies wrote:Depending on the range. Look for an upcoming post in this series soon.

I’m guessing this has to do with wind angular torque or wind shear at a Qld range ?
That will be a good thread to discuss, as it’s a very tuff range for especially when the wind comes from the left and the lower number targets . But till then !
It still is one of the best and the hardest. Anyway off topic !


You haven’t shot Canberra yet have you?
Keith H.


Or Lower Light, Bendigo, Ungarie ?? :D :D

RDavies
Posts: 2318
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: Singleton NSW

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#65 Postby RDavies » Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:39 pm

ben_g wrote:
KHGS wrote:
GSells wrote:I’m guessing this has to do with wind angular torque or wind shear at a Qld range ?
That will be a good thread to discuss, as it’s a very tuff range for especially when the wind comes from the left and the lower number targets . But till then !
It still is one of the best and the hardest. Anyway off topic !


You haven’t shot Canberra yet have you?
Keith H.


Or Lower Light, Bendigo, Ungarie ?? :D :D

Lower Light, Bendigo and Ungarie are all flat, honest ranges, where if you can find them in reasonable winds and sighting conditions, would be great for tuning. (Just got to find a time when wind is reasonable though)

GSells
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Location: Qld

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#66 Postby GSells » Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:47 pm

Earlier on I told newbies to warm up bullets in sun ! I’ll say don’t do it ! It may have caused some vertical problems . Bit like a cooked round . The 280 ai had been humming like a laser right until the last day Qld Queens 1st 1000 . We were all first down and I warmed up my bullets in the sun and the ambient temp was about 7 deg c . I had horrendous vertical from hell ! My thinking that’s its like cooking a round and every bullet would cool of at different rates playing havoc with extreme spreads and SD’s .
The same happened to my .284 at 300 yds Nats and today at Qld training . There was no vertical in the conditions as it was full value and other team members had good vertical.

I’m sorry Rob but I’ll have to go against what u said . As I remember a long time ago FSB days at Nats 2013 I think I warmed up my bullets in my pocket and it was cold about 5 deg c . Huge vertical as the bullets cooled of waiting on the mat to be shot . Fine if u can shoot straight from your pocket straight away . But yep just my opinion don’t do it till I can prove otherwise . It may cost a few points .
So I’m retracting that advice before !
Last edited by GSells on Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bruce moulds
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Re: Tuning Basics 101

#67 Postby bruce moulds » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:00 pm

rod,
lower light can get some mirage at times, making aiming a little difficult, and potentially handing you a bit of vert.
however it is as you say honest in the respect mentioned.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Ackley kid
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:40 am

Re: Tuning Basics 101

#68 Postby Ackley kid » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:38 am

Hi guys
On the Cortina tuning method ( 100 yard ) many shooters chase the best group instead of looking at point of impact stability . Node is identified by POI , and then seating depth , primers can be tweaked to shrink group size (preferably at greater distance) 300-600 yards . Tuning at distance (600) basically turns into a ladder of sorts to fine tune exit timing / vertical
I started playing with Ezell tuner this year and they do work ! A lot of shooters ( myself included ) take to big of leaps adjusting and go right past tune . Usually 3-5 clicks provides a Decent tune . I have started tuning with naked barrel , then install tuner and tweak out the remaining vertical at distance . I made the mistake of trying to tune with one on without moving it . A fellow shooter had told me to back tuner off one full turn and do OCW . Results where very dismal and wasted a lot of rounds . I suspect I was out of tune with tuner causing awful groups and created some doubt on its effectiveness. I used a tuned load from naked barrel and started adjusting tuner . Do not be disgruntled if groups are not what they where with naked barrel you are out of tune , they will come back or be better . Tuners will not make a toad of a barrel a prince , and if you already have a hummer it most likely isn’t gonna help much . As this is my first year playing with one take it for what it’s worth . In my opinion it slightly widens your node as well .
On Lab Radar or reliable chronograph as Rod has stated , they can be used to map velocity so when barrel spreads up you have a benchmark to utilize . SD is not reliable on small samples so chasing the SD of 1 on a three shot sample is pretty meaning less . On larger samples you can utilize against results on target to validate loads .


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