6 br additional calibre

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RAVEN
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:37 pm
Location: Adelaide South Australia (CTV)

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#46 Postby RAVEN » Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:57 pm

Name Change
Tim if you read the argument against even the author is confused on NRAA & NRA just a typo I guess its easily done therein lies problem
we have had 5 name changes since 1888 and the NRAA has only been so for 36% of that time.

Media and anti-gun lobbies will jump at any chance to connect Aust NRA (a non-political body) to the USA version (a very political organisation)
One question do you think the same thing happens with the SSAA ??

There is a push that all target shooting sport come under the Shooting Australia umbrella I consider that a good idea but the various associations like to protect their territory pooling resources is a smart idea but there are too many of those at the decision level that won’t let that happen playing into the hand of the anti's as we in shooting sports will lack clout if we stay divided.
There last media promo I remember from SSAA was promoting its insurance for firearm owners
Guess what we have the same insurance and the NRAA in the past have fail to promote the benefits of being a member.

6BR
I don’t shoot TR and if the TR fraternity think it will attract more to their sport go for it a migration of this calibre to FS I would totally object to because its call F-Class OPEN if FS went to bipod only it could be a FTR Standard class 155 30's /80 223's 105 6mm
May be a better approach would be to ICFRA.

Appling additional fees to membership and doing away with the 3c bullet tax would be fairer for all

RB

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#47 Postby bruce moulds » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:14 am

tim l,
the stack of cards is tumbling down.
where is the p.r?
where is the fund raising through such things as selling promotional products.?
where is the culture change we so badly need to advance? (survive)
why are our disciplines in the eddies of a backwater compared to some others?
where is the real vision we need to stop the rot and move forward?
the board does seem to now be thinking about these things, but possibly not enough of them.
can we change enough in time to survive?
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880
http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Tim L
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: Townsville

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#48 Postby Tim L » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:36 am

bruce moulds wrote:tim l,
the stack of cards is tumbling down.
where is the p.r?
where is the fund raising through such things as selling promotional products.?
where is the culture change we so badly need to advance? (survive)
why are our disciplines in the eddies of a backwater compared to some others?
where is the real vision we need to stop the rot and move forward?
the board does seem to now be thinking about these things, but possibly not enough of them.
can we change enough in time to survive?
bruce.

You seem to have a remarkably pessimestic outlook Bruce. Maybe the rot set in?

Did you read the member update? New web site? New media relationship? That is the start of new PR.

On one had you cite a name change, then you want promotional products. What name or logo should go on the products?

You say our disciplines are in the backwater eddies! And yet: We have all the World Championship golds in TR, the gold in FO and FTR silver, plus a host of individual medals. That is not a backwater eddie situation. You may not be directly involved in it, but it is the pole on which the NRAA flag currently hangs, and a very tall pole it is.

Culture changes don't occur quickly Bruce. One of the reasons for this is some folk blindly disregard the changes that are clearly occuring. The culture can't shift until peoples beliefs change. We now have board members on the firing lines rather than in an office out of contact. Shooting Australia are also onboard with FO and FTR and the strategic plan is a very clear change in vision and direction.

As for doing 'enough' how much is 'enough' for you? Our "volunteer" board can only do so much in any given time period. They have set up sub committees to cover the main areas in order to get things moving more swiftly. They have written and distributed discussion papers to get membership involvement and feedback. I would have to say more information has come out of the NRAA board in the past year than in the 10 previous years combined, but it still takes time mate.

AlexE
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 am

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#49 Postby AlexE » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:23 am

RAVEN wrote:
... There last media promo I remember from SSAA was promoting its insurance for firearm owners
Guess what we have the same insurance and the NRAA in the past have fail to promote the benefits of being a member...



Wait a minute - does NRAA offer the same/similar insurance for shooting equipment that SSAA does? I have in the past paid a SSAA membership in addition to my NRAA membership just to get the SSAA insurance!

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#50 Postby bruce moulds » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:04 am

alex,
like so many things in nraa, this is almost kept top secret.
meanwhile, ssaa has developed their insurance to cover business and other markets to make more money.
then with this money they advertise on the radio.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

PeteFox
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Location: 7321 Tas.

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#51 Postby PeteFox » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:53 am

I am also a SSAA member basically to get the firearms cover.

This is a link to the current NRAA insurance policy

http://www.nraa.com.au/wp-content/uploa ... 018.19.pdf

I can’t see any firearms cover like the SSAA has, please enlighten
Pete

bruce moulds
Posts: 2900
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:07 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#52 Postby bruce moulds » Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:58 am

pete,
need to know basis only.
bruce.
"SUCH IS LIFE" Edward Kelly 11 nov 1880

http://youtu.be/YRaRCCZjdTM

Cliff Austen
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:18 am
Location: Sydney NSW Australia

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#53 Postby Cliff Austen » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:17 am

For those who think the .223 is no competitive see ATR 133, page 50.
Cheers
Cliff

Leftysrule
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:33 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#54 Postby Leftysrule » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:47 am

6BR great calibre option
Can be used with existing bolt face , no need for extra rifle(ie223)
Mild recoil
Happy to use all day at 1000

BD28
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:14 am

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#55 Postby BD28 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:00 am

i don't see the point in going to 6br. The whole sport is so heavily geared around the 308 cartridge, people have made some serious investments in equipment for it. I also think F/TR as it stands in this country is a bit of a waste. Maybe a discipline shuffle is needed rather than introducing new cartridges to established classes.

TR/Standard
TR/Open

F/Standard
F/Open

Tim L
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: Townsville

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#56 Postby Tim L » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:53 am

BD28 wrote:i don't see the point in going to 6br. The whole sport is so heavily geared around the 308 cartridge, people have made some serious investments in equipment for it. I also think F/TR as it stands in this country is a bit of a waste.


Is that because FTR only hold a World Championship silver rather than the golds of TR and open :)
Notice FStd doesnt get a mention :wink:


Lets not forget that outside Australia TR, Open and FTR are all governed by ICFRA. TR rules basically mirror ICFRA, as do FTR but Open have a few differences that any shooter would need to change if shooting abroad. That is a bit of an issue.
FSTD is home grown, we can do as we wish there. Personally I feel an FStd gun shooting 6br is an fopen gun and so should compete in open. Will it beat the SAUMs ? On the longs probably not, probably won't beat a 308 either.
Maybe all we need to do is change the awards formats for comps and have longs and shorts. 300-600 then 700-900. Shooters can win the shorts as an outright comp. Win the longs as an outright comp and potentially win the agg.

Quick
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Location: Yanchep, Western Australia
Contact:

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#57 Postby Quick » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:34 pm

Tim, you starting to talk about having a midrange and long range style of comps like the yanks do. I think this would be better but that's another discussion for another time.
Shaun aka 'Quick'
Yanchep, Western Australia

308 Win F/TR & F-S
7mm F-Open Shooter.

Tim L
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Location: Townsville

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#58 Postby Tim L » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:06 pm

Quick wrote:Tim, you starting to talk about having a midrange and long range style of comps like the yanks do. I think this would be better but that's another discussion for another time.

I kind of agree but reading this thread (it wanders a bit) I feel simply looking at introducing 6br has a wider effect than a casual glance might expose.
Its become fairly clear that we have a variety of perspectives. My own revolves around international shooting and comps, others are keen on Queens, some only interested in local comps and some just want to shoot at the weekend with no interest in club leaderboards let alone the club chmpionships.

The 6br discussion for me MUST revolve around how it effects us internationally because thats where i look from. To that end if its adopted it must be for FSTD only because if it leaks into TR it may compromise our ability to compete internationally. TR shooter still want to win Queens, will offering 6br force a change in those who don't want it but do still want the Queens win?

Pragmaticly, the only argument can be reduced recoil. Cost differences, for all the analysis will be insignificant. 155s and 308 brass should be the cheapest available simply because of the number used. The reason it isn't is simply because of the number used. Demand drives price. Increase the demand for 6s and the cost will follow. Is the 6br easier to load? Nope. Is it better balistically, yep. Does it imbibe the shooter with better wind reading skills. I wish!

The BIG question is will it increase membership? I don't think the 6br is the right case for that job, but which is? The creedmore seems to be flavour of the month in PRS, should we offer that instead of the 6br.
I do believe the introduction of any calibre not ratified by ICFRA should be limited to FSTD because its a home grown discipline to do with as we wish. Do we really need another?
Open FSTD up to 6br or the CM by all means. Open the doors to the PRS guys, let them shoot off bipods or rests. I doubt there would be any change in who wins queens, some may get pushed out of a badge position but we may bring in more members.

ajvanwyk
Posts: 440
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#59 Postby ajvanwyk » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:07 pm

PeteFox wrote:I am also a SSAA member basically to get the firearms cover.

This is a link to the current NRAA insurance policy

http://www.nraa.com.au/wp-content/uploa ... 018.19.pdf

I can’t see any firearms cover like the SSAA has, please enlighten
Pete


Pete,

Just to clarify.... There is no equipment insurance provided to any member by the NRAA. There are some S&T that have included equipment insurance as part of their annual membership fees and is separate to any insurance provided by the NRAA.

Hope this helps.
Albert
Albert
Rosedale Rifle Club
Australian Points Series

BATattack
Posts: 1275
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:29 pm

Re: 6 br additional calibre

#60 Postby BATattack » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:29 pm

BD28 wrote:i don't see the point in going to 6br. The whole sport is so heavily geared around the 308 cartridge, people have made some serious investments in equipment for it. I also think F/TR as it stands in this country is a bit of a waste. Maybe a discipline shuffle is needed rather than introducing new cartridges to established classes.

TR/Standard
TR/Open

F/Standard
F/Open


So at the recent national f class teams there was

7x FTR teams
6x FS teams
5x FO teams

During the queens there was

45 in FTR
36 in FS
34 in FO

FTR is the first discipline internationally but the most recent addition domestically and its already overtaken the other two.

FTR uses the 308 and as you point out the competition is heavily geared to it. FTR also allows the use of ANY brand or weight of bullet so it could be shot even when components are difficult to source.

FTR is an ICFRA recognised discipline and FS isn't.

Still think FTR is a bit of a waste?


Introducing a 6br will probably be the death of TR. Those that take up the 6br will dominate, better accuracy, less recoil and better ballistics are going to create higher scores. The 308 will end up in the same boat as the 223 is in now. Those that can't afford or aren't interested in re barreling or setting up for 6br will putting themselves at a disadvantage and likely be dishearted by their results and leave.

You want to close the gap between 223 and .308? Allow ANY bullet up to 90gr in TR and FS. Don't allow bullet pointing of .308

The problem when you have too many disciplines is that it makes it difficult for OPM's to support them all. If you want 10 different classes so everyone has a chance of winning we might as well hand out participation awards.

Classes should be

TR A, B and remove C

FS. FS continues as 223 or 308 with the same bullet choice as TR BUT it adopts all other restrictions from FTR. So a TR shooter can put a bipod and a scope on their rifle and shoot FS or a FS shooter can put a sling on and sights on their rifle and shoot TR. This would also allow them to shoot FTR with FS ammo or change barrel and bullets and shoot full FTR. This would allow FS to compeditive in its own rite but also allow shooters a natural pathway into FTR and TR if they wanted to shoot for Australia. You could make FS follow FO rules but it would be very difficult for anyone to move from TR to FS or FTR compeditively.

FTR. As per ICFRA rules

FO. As per ICFRA rules.


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