ES / SD reduction strategies

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Rich4
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#61 Postby Rich4 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:07 am

Pommy Chris wrote:
Gyro wrote:I give up. I'm reading BS here. You're on your own Rich. Just be thorough and ALWAYS look critically at all this advice, if in fact u are serious about upping your game.

As Peter said IT IS NOT ANY ONE THING ......

N.B. I see your post is just in Wal and my being totally over this thread is not due to your post

Peter told you the same as others did re the Lee neck sizer and basically everything. Peter is a big part of Aus winning Gold when he was involved.
Peter also has a Gempro..
You need to take a deep breath and listen. I will give advice to anyone and give my secrets away as in the end to win you need to be able to read the wind too and even if you beat me I will be there clapping as you get your prize as this is all about the sport and are friends we see at each comp.
I dont care though if people take my advice or not, we all do as we please. If someone wants to bless their bullets before shooting good on them do what you think helps. Advice though on this site there are some of the best in the world and Peter has been up there with them. They dont know everything but they have knowledge to share and only a fool would choose not to listen. Not sure how many Queens Peter has won, I just know I cant remember how many I have seen as it is so many..
Chris


This, right there is why I love the shooting sports, I’ve never been at the really pointy end of it, so I haven’t seen the gamesmanship Williada speaks of, only this attitude right here and from all the absolute cream of the sport, makes me very proud to be a shooter =D> =D> =D>
Last edited by Rich4 on Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rich4
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#62 Postby Rich4 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:27 am

RDavies wrote:From what Ive seen, powder type and powder weight make a big difference.
Quite often I have seen better ES/SD with powders on the slightly faster burning side for your combination despite the case only being 85% full which goes against the old adage of always trying for 100% case fill, or close to it. I know with my 284s and SAUMs I got better ES/SD with 2209 Vs 2213sc and 2217. Same with my Dashers, 6BR, 6.5s and 300WSM, I usually got better ES/SD , though maybe not always highest velocity with powders on the faster side.

Next is powder charge, or the pressure. Most of the time the ES/SD will improve as you go up in powder charge and increase pressure until you get to over 55000psi but once you get too high, ES/SD will dip down again. I like to fire first shots with each case at reduced pressure on its first firing and have a fire form barrel for most calibres I have. With these first shots I always try to run one node, or about 130 fps slower than usual speed and ES/SD is never as good as when I stoke the load up to full pressure.

Primer selection also makes a difference and your firing pin/spring combination as well as your barrels personality might well prefer different primers to your friends combination. I know my Barnards loved PMC primers for my 284s and SAUMs but a local shooting friend of mine could never get these to work in his other actions. His rifle showed a definite preference to Federal primers, which mine never preferred in any calibre. When I start with a new cartridge or powder combination I will often do a primer test, trying 10 or so shots with 2 or 3 different primers over a chronograph and even with similar type primers, I would usually find one or two primers which went better in chronograph ES/SD than another popular primer.
On top of these, the case prep will be your next bet, but even having cases prepped to extreme levels as many of us are doing during these quiet times, you usually wont get very low ES/SD unless your powder type/charge/pressure and primer selection are right first.
As for whether low ES/SD makes a difference. At shorter ranges, say out to 600-700yds, ES/SD really doesn't make a massive amount of difference and with open calibers at least I have even been able to get good accuracy with not so great ES/SD out to around 800yds. At 900yds I start seeing improvement with better ES/SD and at 1000yds it often does make a difference.
I have heard of people shooting 100x more 1000yds than I do that they often got great accuracy at 1000yds with mediocre ES/SDs but I am not sure if their guns also kept in tube when shooting at shorter ranges as well as F class shooters often do.


I can’t say how thankful I am to have you comment here for everyone, it would be easy to stand back and keep quiet =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>
I can definitely see the firing pin spring making a difference, I shoot a pretty std savage action, however I’ve been through the bolt and installed a kiff lift kit, which allows me to adjust the preload externally, using factory ammunition I have seen a reduced S.D. of 18 to 8

Rich4
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#63 Postby Rich4 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:38 am

Like the gempro even the magnetospeed which has its share of criticism, I believe to be accurate provided its setup and use is logical and consistent, I always shim the front to align it with the bore, it only takes a small difference in distance from sensors to give woopy readings, being hooked to the barrel I’m only measuring rifle velocity, not me as a backstop variation, really I’d like an LR too (and an AMP an a Barnard an a new Bartlein an a and NF comp an a, better stop now! ) actual over the ground speed is immaterial as I’m only tuning with it, I will make a side mount soon to get it off my barrel though, and BURN that strap :twisted:

Pommy Chris
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#64 Postby Pommy Chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:02 am

Old Trev-39 wrote:Many years ago moly was the rage in short range B/R. It no longer is. The reason for this was in a Precision Shooter magazine quite awhile before it went out of publication. As you know most short range B/R shooters clean after each detail, 7 or 8 shots. They found that the moly build up was not consistent, and at times would leave the barrel with un-uniform coating, thus affecting m/v and group size. Many years ago I used moly in a .308 at the beginning of F/Class. The barrel shit itself around 3000 rounds. Even after vigerous cleaning with Sweets ect. Traces remained in the barrel. I sectioned apiece and under a 60x microscope traces could be seen.
I o longer have that piece of barrel and the P/C. magazines have been given away. Maybe someone out there can find it.I know ths is not related to the heading but moly has been mentioned quite a bit.
cheers,
Trevor.

Not sure if the story was about you but story I heard was a shooter who was not cleaning as they thought moly meant this was not needed? Anyway story very like yours and I heard barrels was like a chimney totally uncleanable. Also moly is not applied as it used to be as I said a few posts ago, now it is wet applied far more even and it stays on the projectile were you put it unlike the old dry application which rubs off and fouls barrel quicker. Also FTR we often dont clean for 150-200 rounds, bench rest you clean after 7, it takes maybe 5 for my guns to settle down. I will often fire a few before a comp and leave dirty. I would not expect an even moly coating before 5-7 rounds, but not an issue for us as we dont clean so often.
I bore scope after every clean I assure you moly does not build up and comes off with normal cleaning completely. I have barrels with close to 3,000 rounds and they have no fouling of any sort in them, If you had an issue you must have left the barrel not cleaned for many rounds and fouling set hard or there was an issue with the barrel. Murray got me to check out a barrel with maybe 1000 rounds on as it had stopped shooting well. Not sure how but there was hard carbon up to the mid point of the barrel, the grooves and lands were almost one ie it was like a smooth bore. I wonder if there was blow by, not sure but some issues must have caused such bad fouling (it was not moly for sure as he does not use moly). Anyway just because you used moly does not mean that was the reason for the issue.
Chris

Pommy Chris
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#65 Postby Pommy Chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:12 am

Wal86 wrote:
williada wrote:Keith you make a good point about the stainless and ammonia. Yep, we all had to convinced at the time and found old habits hard to change until a light was shined on it by people with more knowledge.
Last edited by Pommy Chris on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Wal86
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#66 Postby Wal86 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:19 am

Pommy Chris wrote:
Wal86 wrote:
williada wrote:Keith you make a good point about the stainless and ammonia. Yep, we all had to convinced at the time and found old habits hard to change until a light was shined on it by people with more knowledge.


I still use sweets, and have seen no evidence of harm to stainless barrels, if used correctly..

Ammonia on its own is not corrosive to stainless steel.

I believe barrels that have been damaged are operator error, where there has been a cross contamination causing a chemical reaction, this can happen with any cleaning products given the right environment...

Cheers Alan

Sweets may or may not harm the barrel, but it stinks and burns too and there are better cleaners that remove carbon much better. I proved this to a club member ages ago. When he had finished cleaning with sweets I put a nylon brush with eliminator in the barrel and gave it a little scrub, waited and then patched it out and guess what? BLACK.

Chris



Like i said used correctly... I dont use sweets as a carbon cleaner.

Pommy Chris
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#67 Postby Pommy Chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:56 am

Wal86 wrote:
Pommy Chris wrote:
Wal86 wrote:
I still use sweets, and have seen no evidence of harm to stainless barrels, if used correctly..

Ammonia on its own is not corrosive to stainless steel.

I believe barrels that have been damaged are operator error, where there has been a cross contamination causing a chemical reaction, this can happen with any cleaning products given the right environment...

Cheers Alan

Sweets may or may not harm the barrel, but it stinks and burns too and there are better cleaners that remove carbon much better. I proved this to a club member ages ago. When he had finished cleaning with sweets I put a nylon brush with eliminator in the barrel and gave it a little scrub, waited and then patched it out and guess what? BLACK.

Chris



Like i said used correctly... I dont use sweets as a carbon cleaner.
Last edited by Pommy Chris on Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gyro
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#68 Postby Gyro » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:49 am

GSells wrote:
Gyro wrote:
pjifl wrote:depth, now I’ve never tried adjusting neck sizing diameter to change tension, except unintentionally by skim turning necks in a factory chamber.
What do you feel is the largest return on investment for reducing ES ?
Neck tension adjustment?
Bullet pull?
Powder Charge?
Primer selection?
Case selection?
Headspace via Fls? Ie
not the one between my ears


I believe one must be more focused in that it depends somewhat on the distance and the number or shots in a string. Like 15 and 20 shot strings, especially beyond 700 y benefit more from finer tolerances. Most important is to never spend too much time on one factor and neglect another. BALANCE is essential. Best SD is always useful beyond a certain point but strive for balance.
Maybe I am going off on a tangent because low SD is only one factor in many.

Some things like powder charge and case consistency always matter but are not too hard to control - They are less important for the short and midrance shooter. Cartridge concentricity is another but a good seater is essential and usually solves that one.
Firstly, get the best cases you can. If reused many times, shoot then the same number of times.

Bullet pull and neck tension are more or less the same thing. I believe the most consistent neck tension goes hand in hand with quite low neck tension. Some lubrication may help with consistency. Annealing, in theory, may improve neck tensio but I doubt it is worth doing every shot and a good collet die - used on cases shot the same number of times - is a good substitute. Collet dies work the neck far less so they work harden less.

I have used both a carefully made custom FL die and cheap Lee Collet dies and I cannot really see much difference on the target. Cheap commercial FL dies are, however not a good idea. Have a policy of avoiding donuts at all costs and Lee is most useful in this regard - thus neck tension becomes more consistent.

I have watched with interest the use of moly but have never used it. I do not believe it improves accuracy and is an added complication. As someone mentioned, in other forms is as old as the hills going back 100 years. One 'molyed' each bullet individually by wiping it against the little finger immediately before chambering the cartridge. It may have other benefits but I consider them quite small. The modern craze for moly was really driven by commercial interests. I does not extend barrel life very much.

Primers - I would not know. But beware of inadequate testing that only reinforces myths.

What it eventually comes down to is learning to manage an accurate rifle in a balanced way and make good decisions when actually shooting.

Some barrels seem to thrive despite the worst attempts by shooters to mismanage their rifle.

And most lost matches are due to the nut behind the butt. A top rifle is useless in the wrong hands. Try to analyse your performance - this is very very hard to do.

Sorry - I have drifted away from SD. It does become more important at the longs where you cannot achieve sufficient compensation with a stiff barrel.

Peter Smith.


Great post Peter. And as you say none of these things exist in isolation. Shooters are apt to get myopic about some stuff and not know what's actually affecting thier performance.

Where you say ... "inadequate testing that only reinforces myths" .... is absolutely true. Lots of myths and wivestales have persisted in this game for a very long time.

Just imagine someone wanted to get really serious about testing primers and thier effect on SD/ES. To do that test even half arsed would take a good deal of time and effort. You would need to first rule out the shooter, so a machine rest would be required. You would need to test each primer/powder combination at the same barrel fouling state. You would need to weigh/volume check the cases to be used ..... the list of controls required actually goes on and on.

Anyway Rich, have u checked your scales ? I checked my bloody old Ohaus 505 scales against a mates very expensive electronic scales. I just weighed out 5 powder charges and took them to his place and all my charges were within one kernel of his. So that's ticked that box. Mind u I have done a 'mod' to my Ohaus scales which has really helped. I shall get a pic up of that.

I suspect nk tension has very little effect on ES/SD only because annealing ( which CAN - and I believe should - do the shoulder too !!!!!!!! ) tests have shown no real gains for this.

I went to a shoot the other day ( the first one in over a year ) and watched an F Open guy set up his gear on the mound. He has been F shooting for about 15 years. He plonks down his very light low-inertia value front rest. Then he puts his matt down and sits his light steel plate on top of the mat. Then he sits his light poxy bouncy-mid-section rear bag on the plate and gets it all lined up. I really really wanted to say something !!! To help the guy. To help others over here shooting with dodgy gear or shooting with good gear and then not setting it up properly. I could go on and on but I'd end up with less mates than I already have hahahah. My dog loves me !

This forum is good because there is very little personal abuse type writing and that's important because we all have different backgrounds and moods and blah blah blah. Cheers Rob.

Sorry Rob , I must interject! When we went to that awful windy place called Trentham, you were one of the first to get in touch with the team wanting to help ! You have won at that place a number of times in f open and ftr and beat all of us Aussies . I have great respect for you as a competitor and person !
Just saying mate ! I think you deserve the respect ! God willing I hope to get hopelessly beaten up again at that God Forsaken Windy place again with you and the other lovely Kiwi shooters ! I had so much fun there ! But yes Rob ! 8)

Sorry for getting of topic Alan !


Very kind words mate thanks.

I haven’t done any “hard yards”. I have done a lot of easy ones though as for the last 10 years I’ve worked only 2-3 days a week so I could have plenty of time to play in my workshop designing and building all kinds of mostly fairly innovative shooting toys. I have a farm just 5 minutes away where I can shoot 24 hours a day if I desire, and I nearly do, or did.

Rich : I hear the “Teslong” borescope is cheap but still very good ? If ya dont have a borescope to look in there then you are just guessing what's happening. And what's going on in there is VERY important.

https://www.google.com/search?q=teslong ... e&ie=UTF-8

Rich4
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#69 Postby Rich4 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:09 pm

I’ve looked at the reviews so far, I’ve got a lyman which is better than nothing but difficult to see details, I think the teslong would be more convenient in the lathe and pictures I’ve seen are better, might wait till after the infestation now, we’re actually isolating as my parents are squarely in the worst bracket but I have to see them regularly with the Ranch, anybody done a comparison?

Pommy Chris
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#70 Postby Pommy Chris » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:55 pm

Rich4 wrote:I’ve looked at the reviews so far, I’ve got a lyman which is better than nothing but difficult to see details, I think the teslong would be more convenient in the lathe and pictures I’ve seen are better, might wait till after the infestation now, we’re actually isolating as my parents are squarely in the worst bracket but I have to see them regularly with the Ranch, anybody done a comparison?

The Teslong is about as good as anything you can buy at any price. I have the lyman too which is far far inferior.
Chris

Old Trev-39
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#71 Postby Old Trev-39 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:09 pm

Hi Chris,
All my rifles are cleaned as soon as I can after shooting. I like to clean them while hot as they clean up quicker.
Cheers,
Trevor.

John T
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#72 Postby John T » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Hello Rich4.

I think the essence of your enquiry is how to achieve consistent Chamber Pressure (CP). With your permission, can we move down that trail? Thank you.

The list of factors which impact on CP is long, some with sub-issues. This is my list (according to a faulty memory) taken in order from "back" to "front".
Lock time
Chamber
Case
Case sizing
Primer
Powder
Charge
Powder loading procedure
Neck grip
Seating
Powder ignition
Throat erosion/lengthening.
This is not an exclusive list and I expect others to add to it, but let's make a start.

LOCK TIME. A "non" fire (I prefer that to "miss') is most often, for me, a "non-powder". But I have been surprised by them with a new bolt. The spring was too light. Another cause is a partly obstructed pin channel. If it feels like a rattling gravel truck rather a knockout hit to the jaw when you fire, get thee to your gunsmith.
CHAMBER. You have purchased a top quality barrel. You have engaged a gunsmith of renowned proficiency. He uses only the most precise equipment, including the best reamer available. Less than 3 ticks, I don't want to talk about it.
CASE. You must use only the best quality available. When I last purchased 7 RSAUM brass, Norma was highly regarded. Nosler makes the best looking brass in any calibre. Things that shine.... It is trite to say that if the dimensions and volume of the powder chamber in your cases are not uniform, CP will not be uniform. The most heartache is to be found in persisting with poor cases, no matter how well you have prepared them.

I've not got very far, but it's "G..g..good night folks, f..for now"

Regards,
John T.

argh
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Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#73 Postby argh » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:41 am

Rich4 wrote:I’ve recently decided to follow Keith’s advice re moly coating mainly for barrel maintenance (if there is ever any moly powder in Qld again) and it occurs to me that it may actually help reduce ES via consistent neck grip and possibly more consistent seating depth, now I’ve never tried adjusting neck sizing diameter to change tension, except unintentionally by skim turning necks in a factory chamber.
What do you feel is the largest return on investment for reducing ES ?
Neck tension adjustment?
Bullet pull?
Powder Charge?
Primer selection?
Case selection?
Headspace via Fls? Ie not the one between my ears
:D


Late into this subject, but will add my thoughts, not on technical aspects, but on your own attitude to improving, continual improvement, or maintaining the status quo and maybe "moving with the herd" mentality.

There has been many people add some immensely valuable information in the posts above, from personal experience , and from reading and gleaning information from books, forums, and techical papers. Actual experience from those that have tested different changes is invaluable, IF you can objectively determine the outcomes of your experimentation are due to the inputs that you changed (for example, was the vertical variance on the target a result of different primers, shooter error, or mirage/lighting inconsistencies).

This game, once we are past the initial learning curve, is a game of the one percenters. That is, many of the improvements that we can do to our reloading, or shooting technique, and our gear setup will only improve a small amount for each change. Many of the changes will on their own be lost in the noise of wind reading, atmospheric changes, and shooter error on the day of actual shooting.

Reducing SD as per the OP, is just one of those changes, remembering that reducing the SD on an inacurate load does not make it better - you need a good load, then reduce SD, and make sure it replicates the results on the target

What we need to do to improve pur own shooting, is to work out what makes a difference, what has no impact, and add all of those 1% improvements together. Make sure that you pay attention to the parts of your setup, reloading, and technique that actually make a difference, and dont waste time on things that dont improve accuracy. I will plagiarize a phrase from Ben Hunt Davis, the british rower. Will it make me shoot better? Watch the video below, its from a different sport entirely, has been adapted to business sucess, but i cant think of a better way to describe how to improve your shooting.

Practice and critically review your technique, test different reloading/brass prep, etc, but work out if it makes you shoot better. If it does improve your shooting, and only a needs a small amount, do it. If it makes no difference, dont do it. "Will it make me shoot better?"

BTW, those of you that spend the time to test different things in shooting, to deterime if it makes a difference, are generally those that sit at the top of the leaderboard. Those that follow others believing that it makes a difference will generally lag behind and take the minor places.

Well worth watching the below video, for personal, business and how it can relate to your aporoach to shooting.

https://youtu.be/VlTfbGemGcM

Rich
Will It Make Me Shoot Better?
Test things, test things often, and only do what makes a positive improvement.

KHGS
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Location: Cowra NSW

Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#74 Postby KHGS » Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:05 pm

argh wrote:
Rich4 wrote:I’ve recently decided to follow Keith’s advice re moly coating mainly for barrel maintenance (if there is ever any moly powder in Qld again) and it occurs to me that it may actually help reduce ES via consistent neck grip and possibly more consistent seating depth, now I’ve never tried adjusting neck sizing diameter to change tension, except unintentionally by skim turning necks in a factory chamber.
What do you feel is the largest return on investment for reducing ES ?
Neck tension adjustment?
Bullet pull?
Powder Charge?
Primer selection?
Case selection?
Headspace via Fls? Ie not the one between my ears
:D


Late into this subject, but will add my thoughts, not on technical aspects, but on your own attitude to improving, continual improvement, or maintaining the status quo and maybe "moving with the herd" mentality.

There has been many people add some immensely valuable information in the posts above, from personal experience , and from reading and gleaning information from books, forums, and techical papers. Actual experience from those that have tested different changes is invaluable, IF you can objectively determine the outcomes of your experimentation are due to the inputs that you changed (for example, was the vertical variance on the target a result of different primers, shooter error, or mirage/lighting inconsistencies).

This game, once we are past the initial learning curve, is a game of the one percenters. That is, many of the improvements that we can do to our reloading, or shooting technique, and our gear setup will only improve a small amount for each change. Many of the changes will on their own be lost in the noise of wind reading, atmospheric changes, and shooter error on the day of actual shooting.

Reducing SD as per the OP, is just one of those changes, remembering that reducing the SD on an inacurate load does not make it better - you need a good load, then reduce SD, and make sure it replicates the results on the target

What we need to do to improve pur own shooting, is to work out what makes a difference, what has no impact, and add all of those 1% improvements together. Make sure that you pay attention to the parts of your setup, reloading, and technique that actually make a difference, and dont waste time on things that dont improve accuracy. I will plagiarize a phrase from Ben Hunt Davis, the british rower. Will it make me shoot better? Watch the video below, its from a different sport entirely, has been adapted to business sucess, but i cant think of a better way to describe how to improve your shooting.

Practice and critically review your technique, test different reloading/brass prep, etc, but work out if it makes you shoot better. If it does improve your shooting, and only a needs a small amount, do it. If it makes no difference, dont do it. "Will it make me shoot better?"

BTW, those of you that spend the time to test different things in shooting, to deterime if it makes a difference, are generally those that sit at the top of the leaderboard. Those that follow others believing that it makes a difference will generally lag behind and take the minor places.

Well worth watching the below video, for personal, business and how it can relate to your aporoach to shooting.

https://youtu.be/VlTfbGemGcM

Rich
Will It Make Me Shoot Better?
Test things, test things often, and only do what makes a positive improvement.


Great post, sums everything up succinctly!!! :shock: =D> =D> =D>
Great video too!!!! =D> =D> =D>
Keith H.

williada
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: ES / SD reduction strategies

#75 Postby williada » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:34 pm

Wal do you only leave the Sweet's in for a short time? I still use it breaking in a barrel for the first few shots after I have used a carbon cleaner and a bronze brush. Then remove all traces of the Sweets with soapy water. I use Sweets not longer than for a few minutes because the work hardening of the stainless has not occurred and I want to buff out those reamer marks with bullet contact and don't want to be riding over old copper in the time frame I have to get the job done. Thereafter with no Sweets and let the bullets lap the surface layer dimension in the final run in as work hardening of the stainless is occurring before we get over the hump in barrel velocity that some mistakenly associated with SD issues before a barrel has settled. Certainly don't use hot loads running in a barrel and use it to run in new brass while I am at it. But I have seen the problems in stainless barrels Keith has witnessed with too much exposure to ammonia. Like anything it all depends how you use it and the Sweets is safe to use. In the old days people used to separate ammonia from urine and use it as a cleaner on floors. Many an infantry man used to pee on blisters in the past.


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