Handicap system

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Trevor Rhodes
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Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Handicap system

#1 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Tue May 05, 2020 9:19 pm

You have top shooters and not so top shooters. PMs have all the grades and I feel that even at club level when a member get a caning each week he or she loose the drive to try harder and even gives up. A handicap system to bring their scores to a competitive score would prevent loosing these old, young or new shooters. Now the problem, the NRAA grading system would not work as a lot of these members would not have a grading plus l think it is not accurate enough to use. So how could a system be formulated that is fair for all making everyone a chance to win. Any ideas on this , just trying to hold on to our membership and to expand it.

scott/r
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Location: far north brisbane

Re: Handicap system

#2 Postby scott/r » Wed May 06, 2020 7:56 am

Trevor, the only system I've seen is where you take the shooters last 5 scores and take an average of points dropped over the 5 scores, and that's their handicap.
So if you had 105, 110, 102, 116, 111 out 126 you have a total of 86 points dropped. Divide that by 5 to get your average. That gives you a handicap of 17. The only down side is that it needs to be upgraded every week, but that'll give you're captain something to do during the week.
Scott

AlanF
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Re: Handicap system

#3 Postby AlanF » Wed May 06, 2020 8:02 am

Here's what we use Trev.
SimpleClubHandicapSystem.pdf
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Barry Davies
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Re: Handicap system

#4 Postby Barry Davies » Wed May 06, 2020 9:20 am

Does handicap work any better than grading?
Problem with handicap systems is that when the maximum score is reached by more than one competitor a result is usually determined by percentage of handicap saved --big mistake as in 99.5% of cases the scratch shooter wins --handicap system is therefore defeated.
Not knocking the idea, just pointing out it rarely does what is intended based on percentage saved.

RMc
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: Handicap system

#5 Postby RMc » Wed May 06, 2020 9:49 am

Trev, the problem with handicaps is that they are reasonable if the shooters only shoot on the one range under the same conditions. Where a shooter travels and contests on harder and longer ranges their scores will vary a lot more and their handicaps will suffer. This will lead to a good shooter going to an easier range with a higher handicap than a less talented shooter who competes there all the time. This would place the new shooter at a greater disadvantage than what you are trying to fix.

Richard

AlanF
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Re: Handicap system

#6 Postby AlanF » Wed May 06, 2020 10:51 am

The above handicap system I attached for download is used only for Rosedale Club days. For many years I had close to or lowest handicap in our system. During that time I estimate Bill Astill (B then C Grade) won the daily handicap about 5 times as much as I did! So I would disagree that handicap systems favour those on the lowest handicaps. If they favour anyone, its the ones whose scores are wildly inconsistent :D .

williada
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Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:37 am

Re: Handicap system

#7 Postby williada » Wed May 06, 2020 11:02 am

There is also the use of handicaps in many team shooting events and it is a basis for our current grading system. IMO handicaps should be scrapped and a greater emphasis placed on developing shooters to level the playing field, except for prize meeting grading. Utilizing handicaps in team shooting scenarios over the last few years, has seen system manipulation by competitors blowing out their handicaps running in barrels or loads, To come to a competition with the latter in mind is disrespectful of all others in the competition, then to add to the insult, to use better gear of their own or borrowed when it counted, Bigger clubs who with large numbers are able to stack teams. It is not a level playing field and to me the results are hollow and breed contempt.

In the past, ethical captains (who still retain the authority) would call out shooters who were pot hunters and allocate them a grade in prize meetings. The incentive to cheat the spirit of the competition is not so prevalent in the current prize meeting scenario because it costs dollars to get a grading. On the other hand those with egos do not participate because of the stigma of dropping down a grade when their performance is not what they expect. FO does not have this problem because there are no grades.

Speaking for myself, I always looked at self improvement as the key to success. There is more engagement in the sport when experienced shooters mentor others. There is no greater thrill for the mentor to see a developing shooter do well and gain confidence. The sharing of knowledge at the club level is the foundation of engagement and consistency.

"The person who asks a question is only a fool for a minute. The person who does not ask a question is a fool for life". New shooters should be encouraged to ask.

Wal86
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Handicap system

#8 Postby Wal86 » Wed May 06, 2020 12:04 pm

With a good handicap system there is no need for grades at all, especially with the current participation levels...

Top 3 shooters OTG/HCP (off the gun/handicap) in each class... This model takes nothing away from the top level and providing the HCP system is generous creates a healthy comp for new and mid-lower tier shooters..

Just a thought,
Cheers
Alan

Barry Davies
Posts: 1383
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Handicap system

#9 Postby Barry Davies » Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm

Your first sentence covers it Alan.
But,there is no good handicap systems,--too many variables.
300 yard handicaps are no good for 900 yds and vice versa -as an example.
There are many other variables.
Some competitors ( at club level ) actually do shoot to maintain high handicaps, as David said.
Agree with David--teach those with aspirations how to improve.

Weairy
Posts: 418
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Location: Seymour, Vic

Re: Handicap system

#10 Postby Weairy » Thu May 07, 2020 6:16 am

There are all kinds of issues with handicaps; system manipulation is one for sure. You’d see it in field and game shooting a bit, back in the paper card days. Pull out the “other” score card that says you’re a B6 shooter instead of an A2 shooter and blitz the day. Or lay down at a few smaller events in the lead up to a big OPM/state queens and pump the handicap up a few points.

But (and this may sound a little snobby) it also devalues those of us thatve spent good time and money to get the right gear and develop loads and learned to read wind etc by having someone come in, shoot 5 rounds with factory ammo and shot out barrels and little to no idea, run up a big handicap and then be able to make a slight improvement and beat you, because their score is +20 at the end of the day.

There are so many variables in this sport that make a handicap system very hard to develop. Perhaps a similar system to FGA could be looked at (grades and handicaps working in tandem) and an FO-B and FTR-B grade could be adopted?
Josh Weaire
Nagambie R.C.
I'm not Craig, if you want to contact him, email on c.weaire@bigpond.com

Martin
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:36 pm

Re: Handicap system

#11 Postby Martin » Thu May 07, 2020 11:00 am

At club level, a small number of competitors precludes the use of the grading system so a handicap system adds interest and encourages participation.

I suspect that over time if you plot scores for a particular shooter you would see a normal distribution (bell) curve. That means the average is also the mean. In other words, 50% of the time the shooter will score above their average and 50% below. The better the shooter the narrower the spread of data.

The basis for a handicap system should be that a competitor is in the mix to win on handicap when they are shooting at their best, not just above average. So the basis for a handicap system could be taking say the last 10 scores and dropping the lowest 5 and then working with the average of the 5 highest to determine a handicap.

AlanF
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Re: Handicap system

#12 Postby AlanF » Thu May 07, 2020 1:32 pm

Martin,

The only issue with your idea is the complexity of computing it. Using Excel, which is probably the most widely used way of handling handicap systems, the MIN() and MAX() functions make it simple to discard highest and lowest. However to discard more than that would require sorting the group of scores, which would need a macro to do it efficiently.

RMc
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:16 pm

Re: Handicap system

#13 Postby RMc » Thu May 07, 2020 8:12 pm

Alan, I am a bit surprised that an idea would be put down only on the basis of lack of knowledge, a couple of hours of coding would be all that is needed to formulate a system to keep a rolling handicap. Just distribute it to all who need it.

Richard

Trevor Rhodes
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Woodbrook Vic.

Re: Handicap system

#14 Postby Trevor Rhodes » Thu May 07, 2020 8:34 pm

I'm sure there is someone in our movement that can formulate a programe that handicaps and scores.

AlanF
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:22 pm
Location: Maffra, Vic

Re: Handicap system

#15 Postby AlanF » Thu May 07, 2020 8:50 pm

Richard,
I didn't put the idea down, gave it a thumbs up actually - just said it might be awkward to implement in Excel.

Trev,

I already have an Excel spreadsheet that implements the 98% system as per the attachment above, which I'm happy to make available. However you can be sure that it wouldn't suit everyone's needs. If you can get consensus on a system for general use at club level, I'm happy to adapt it. I'm also aware of some who could write one in a more bullet-proof compiled language, but that would take a lot more than Richard's 2 hours. The key requirement would be getting the consensus - I wish you luck with that :D .


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