Sweet's Oil

Get or give advice on equipment, reloading and other technical issues.

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wsftr
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#16 Postby wsftr » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:59 pm

Just out of curiosity - is there a reason to shoot the first bullet in a match with oil in the barrel...if so does that apply when doing load dev?
I'm curious - I don't shoot with oil in the bore so maybe there is something to learn here (not sure I'm gonna change what has been working but interested to hear others stories).

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#17 Postby KHGS » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:03 pm

wsftr wrote:Just out of curiosity - is there a reason to shoot the first bullet in a match with oil in the barrel...if so does that apply when doing load dev?
I'm curious - I don't shoot with oil in the bore so maybe there is something to learn here (not sure I'm gonna change what has been working but interested to hear others stories).


Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots. This means at the end of a string there will be a heavier deposit of copper than if you fire the first shot with a trace of oil in the bore. This is why in string shooting it is important that the oil used is one that does not require a "settling" in period before "counting" shots are recorded.
Keith H.

saum2
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#18 Postby saum2 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:46 pm

Off topic but has anyone tried Penetrene? a tried and proven product
Last edited by saum2 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#19 Postby KHGS » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:16 pm

saum2 wrote:Off topic but has anyone tried Prenetrene? a tried and proven product


Penetrene is my second choice bore oil.
Keith H.

AlanF
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#20 Postby AlanF » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:37 pm

KHGS wrote:Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots...

Another question Keith, in your experience why do some barrels do a high first shot. I often see this for the second and subsequent ranges of the day, when the barrel is cold, but not clean.

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#21 Postby KHGS » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:09 pm

AlanF wrote:
KHGS wrote:Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots...

Another question Keith, in your experience why do some barrels do a high first shot. I often see this for the second and subsequent ranges of the day, when the barrel is cold, but not clean.


I have never had this problem personally, I have heard of it happening. I do not have an answer for you except to say that perhaps a pasting MAY be the answer. Another thing you can try is a dry bronze brushing after each stage, pass up the barrel remove the brush at the muzzle, do this no more than 3 or 4 times. Brushing forward only is to stop dragging carbon dust back into the chamber. If this does not fix the problem it then has to be a quirk of that barrel, some barrels can shoot very well but have quirks, provided the quirks are predictable and consistent they can be dealt (lived) with.
Keith H.

Gyro
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#22 Postby Gyro » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:19 am

KHGS wrote:
wsftr wrote:Just out of curiosity - is there a reason to shoot the first bullet in a match with oil in the barrel...if so does that apply when doing load dev?
I'm curious - I don't shoot with oil in the bore so maybe there is something to learn here (not sure I'm gonna change what has been working but interested to hear others stories).


Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots. This means at the end of a string there will be a heavier deposit of copper than if you fire the first shot with a trace of oil in the bore. This is why in string shooting it is important that the oil used is one that does not require a "settling" in period before "counting" shots are recorded.
Keith H.


I would suspect just about everything and anything has been tried re coating the bore before firing. I have gone back to firing over oil for the 1st few shots BUT only after a few years of starting dry because it has been a fairly well accepted tale that starting with a totally dry bore gives the most consistent first few shots. And perhaps it does but perhaps it also takes you into an excessively fouled state quicker, which as kieth suggests may be detrimental in string shooting.

Add to an already confusing story that barrels have individual quirks it's perhaps no wonder some end up trying using the likes of moly to hopefully avoid the above. Then some end up swearing by moly. Once again I suspect it takes a great deal of experience to know the best direction to take when problems arise and even to avoid them in the first place. Kieth says shoot over Sweets and Jim says use this one ..... and I reckon there's probably a few tricks some know that won't be getting shared here ?

wsftr
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#23 Postby wsftr » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:19 am

KHGS wrote:
wsftr wrote:Just out of curiosity - is there a reason to shoot the first bullet in a match with oil in the barrel...if so does that apply when doing load dev?
I'm curious - I don't shoot with oil in the bore so maybe there is something to learn here (not sure I'm gonna change what has been working but interested to hear others stories).


Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots. This means at the end of a string there will be a heavier deposit of copper than if you fire the first shot with a trace of oil in the bore. This is why in string shooting it is important that the oil used is one that does not require a "settling" in period before "counting" shots are recorded.
Keith H.


Thanks - it is interesting - maybe its how clean the barrel is that affects this more. I haven't come across a precision issue or barrel life issue to warrant changing but I have heard before to never shoot on a dry bore.

If you are ok I would like to ask a further question...
Do you clean and oil after each days shooting?
Not challenging - just curious - cleaning regimes are a bit like reloading - plenty of different paths to something that works - but always something to learn from others :)

AlanF
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#24 Postby AlanF » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:58 am

wsftr wrote:...Do you clean and oil after each days shooting?...

I am also keen to hear what Keith says on this.

FWIW, I have a general principle with cleaning that if a barrel shoots predictably when clean, clean often (even between ranges). For a barrel that takes a while to settle, learn how long it'll go without a clean. In some cases e.g. with 6mm calibres, this can be several days shooting.

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#25 Postby KHGS » Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:24 pm

wsftr wrote:
KHGS wrote:
wsftr wrote:Just out of curiosity - is there a reason to shoot the first bullet in a match with oil in the barrel...if so does that apply when doing load dev?
I'm curious - I don't shoot with oil in the bore so maybe there is something to learn here (not sure I'm gonna change what has been working but interested to hear others stories).


Years of observation and experience tells me that the first shot through a squeaky clean barrel will "lay" down as much copper fouling as the next five shots. This means at the end of a string there will be a heavier deposit of copper than if you fire the first shot with a trace of oil in the bore. This is why in string shooting it is important that the oil used is one that does not require a "settling" in period before "counting" shots are recorded.
Keith H.


Thanks - it is interesting - maybe its how clean the barrel is that affects this more. I haven't come across a precision issue or barrel life issue to warrant changing but I have heard before to never shoot on a dry bore.

If you are ok I would like to ask a further question...
Do you clean and oil after each days shooting?
Not challenging - just curious - cleaning regimes are a bit like reloading - plenty of different paths to something that works - but always something to learn from others :)


I have a saying that I quote to my customers, "never let the sun set on a dirty barrel". I practice this as well as recommend it, I am a avid moly user as well.
Alan, it is my firm belief that a barrel that takes an inordinate number of shots to "settle" after cleaning is not clean at all. The mistake then is to reduce cleaning which only serves to make the problem worse.
Keith H.

John T
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#26 Postby John T » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:23 pm

Keith,

Excellent advice, thank you. It may seem basic when compared to the esoteric discussions we see sometimes, but such basics may well count for more.

Give us more Keith, please.

Regards, John T.

AlanF
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#27 Postby AlanF » Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:21 pm

KHGS wrote:...Alan, it is my firm belief that a barrel that takes an inordinate number of shots to "settle" after cleaning is not clean at all...

Keith, this is just a theory, but if you have a bullet that is a tad too small for the bore (or a bore that's a tad too big for the bullet), then maybe its needs some extra fouling shots to improve the seal and settle? Sometimes you can opt for a fatter bullet but its not always possible.

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#28 Postby KHGS » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:12 pm

AlanF wrote:
KHGS wrote:...Alan, it is my firm belief that a barrel that takes an inordinate number of shots to "settle" after cleaning is not clean at all...

Keith, this is just a theory, but if you have a bullet that is a tad too small for the bore (or a bore that's a tad too big for the bullet), then maybe its needs some extra fouling shots to improve the seal and settle? Sometimes you can opt for a fatter bullet but its not always possible.


Alan, in this case the group will be large. I have experienced this with undersized bullets. Nozler .224 X 80 grain bullets usually run about .0004" undersize and do not shoot well in true to size .224" barrels, groups are large and no amount of fouling make them group well in these barrels. Lapua 6.5 & 6mm bullets usually .0002" or .0003" undersized as well and will group big in true to size barrels.
Keith H.

Gyro
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#29 Postby Gyro » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:54 pm

KHGS wrote:
AlanF wrote:
KHGS wrote:...Alan, it is my firm belief that a barrel that takes an inordinate number of shots to "settle" after cleaning is not clean at all...

Keith, this is just a theory, but if you have a bullet that is a tad too small for the bore (or a bore that's a tad too big for the bullet), then maybe its needs some extra fouling shots to improve the seal and settle? Sometimes you can opt for a fatter bullet but its not always possible.


Alan, in this case the group will be large. I have experienced this with undersized bullets. Nozler .224 X 80 grain bullets usually run about .0004" undersize and do not shoot well in true to size .224" barrels, groups are large and no amount of fouling make them group well in these barrels. Lapua 6.5 & 6mm bullets usually .0002" or .0003" undersized as well and will group big in true to size barrels.
Keith H.


Sounds like a mine field Keith. So when barrel "x" won't shoot and everything else is all top notch ( lets say it's a serious F Open rifle ) does the gunsmith straight away measure the bore ? And if they do how often is a problem found ?

KHGS
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Re: Sweet's Oil

#30 Postby KHGS » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:52 pm

Sounds like a mine field Keith. So when barrel "x" won't shoot and everything else is all top notch ( lets say it's a serious F Open rifle ) does the gunsmith straight away measure the bore ? And if they do how often is a problem found ?[/quote]

Samples of the bullet to be used should be measured with a mic that measures to .0001", the actual measurement of the bullets will tell you what the accuracy problem (if there is one) is. Smaller diameter bullets are barrel selective, whereas barrels that are .0003" undersized are not bullet selective in regard to bullet size. These barrels will usually shoot all match bullets well. I am always wary of match bullets that are undersized they will shoot well in barrels that suit them, read tight barrels. If you have an accuracy issue with a given bullet the first order of business is to measure the bullet. If the bullet is indeed undersized it can be assumed that the barrel is true to size. If these bullets shoot well in another barrel it can be safely assumed that this barrel is "tight". As you say, this is after a full examination of the rifle does not uncover any. mechanical problem. As an aside, barrels that have shot well and have a low to moderate round count but "go off" the problem will more often than not be traced to carbon fouling or crown damage. This crown damage need only be very slight to create an accuracy deterioration.
Keith H.


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