Eric Cortina on setting the dies for shoulder bump

[bruce moulds]

yes you have to be anal about all these issues, and i will not go into my own anality.
there are a lot of good points in this discussion.
however there is another point i would like to illustrate using my last shoot at 900m.
19 of 20 to count had vert that would just cater for the x ring, and one blew out to 0.6 moa.
do i need better than this?
it would be nice, but the elephant in the room is that the group was in the order of 3moa+ wide!!!!!!
realistically, where can i most easily pick up more points?
and can that load hold similar vert at 300 and 600?
bruce.

[AlanF]

yes you have to be anal about all these issues, and i will not go into my own anality.
there are a lot of good points in this discussion.
however there is another point i would like to illustrate using my last shoot at 900m.
19 of 20 to count had vert that would just cater for the x ring, and one blew out to 0.6 moa.
do i need better than this?
it would be nice, but the elephant in the room is that the group was in the order of 3moa+ wide!!!!!!
realistically, where can i most easily pick up more points?
and can that load hold similar vert at 300 and 600?
bruce.

Well, I would argue that in this case, your vertical may have been caused by conditions (900m, windy, a slight change of wind direction can cause half a minute of vertical). But in general, vertical spread and horizontal spread have independent causes, so why not do the best you can to minimise both? There was a time in F-Open when your wind-reading skills could come to the rescue of your equipment accuracy deficiencies, even at the top level. Those days are long gone - you now need to nail everything.

[Gyro]

...The amount of axial clearance that exists in the chamber between the case OAL and the 'front' of same chamber matters and needs to be understood and managed...

And here's an inexpensive gadget that helps you do that :

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/case-gauges-headspace-tools/sinclair-chamber-length-gage-prod32925.aspx.

Whale oil beef hooked Alan I've made a couple of these myself.

For the newer shooters : the dynamics at work here that can lead to accuracy issues are that this space can form a carbon buildup referred to as a carbon ring. If u have a bunch of cases at say 2.200" inches OAL and one at say 2.210" then that longer case will butt into that "carbon ring", affecting pressures. Various tools have been made to clean just this part of the chamber. Your cleaning regime is implicated in how this buildup may or may not become a problem too. And whether your cases are all at a uniform length impacts on what happens too i.e. maybe trim them all to the length of the shortest one ?

[bruce moulds]

you are right of course alan.
however where i am now the questions i have to ask myself are the ones mentioned.
a moa rifle well steered would have beaten me black and blue and then thrown me in a blackberry bush.
bruce.

[wsftr]

you are right of course alan.
however where i am now the questions i have to ask myself are the ones mentioned.
a moa rifle well steered would have beaten me black and blue and then thrown me in a blackberry bush.
bruce.

look at it this way Bruce - everyone will tell you how to build an accurate rifle and load because that won't win matches...it does make you feel good...
wind reading - very little (relatively speaking) is discussed - wind reading - thats the secret sauce that wins matches...actually wind reading and mind set...
An interesting point - the innovation in gear is incredible - the innovation in tools/techniques/methods producing data to analyse wind reading...not so much...

[bruce moulds]

you are right of course alan.
however where i am now the questions i have to ask myself are the ones mentioned.
a moa rifle well steered would have beaten me black and blue and then thrown me in a blackberry bush.
bruce.

look at it this way Bruce - everyone will tell you how to build an accurate rifle and load because that won't win matches...it does make you feel good...
wind reading - very little (relatively speaking) is discussed - wind reading - thats the secret sauce that wins matches...actually wind reading and mind set...
An interesting point - the innovation in gear is incredible - the innovation in tools/techniques/methods producing data to analyse wind reading...not so much...

yes there is still a trend in fclass to look for free lunches at the expense of the elephant in the room.
bruce.

[pjifl]

I suspect that the top equipment today is no better than what our top shooters took overseas in the past 10 years - or if better it is miniscule.

The main difference is that more and more people are taking advantage of the knowledge gained and getting comparable gear built up and are prepared to accept limited barrel life on their top competition rifle.

Shooter organization - and team organization - is the area most amenable to improvement. More understood by some - less by others.

And of course experience in managing a rifle under less than perfect conditions. Which involves experience and traveling.

I do wish, however, that people here would realize that Aust has some of the best in the world and new shooters should be encouraged to learn from them. It is usually best to keep a new shooter away from US web sites. Some are good but most are simply pushing mediocracy for the money. A few years ago I had an incredibly hard time trying to wean a new shooter from many crackpot ideas all gleaned by US web sites and self styled 'experts'. It is the same with videos on learning to use a Lathe or other machine tool. It seems that as soon as a newbee buys himself a shiny new Lathe he wants to make a video for YouTube showing off his newly acquired expertise. There is some marvelous stuff there but a lot is very poor advice.

BTW - I am not specifically referring to Eric. I do not gel with his style. Most of his stuff is not misinformation but usually just a rehash of the obvious.

Peter Smith.

[Gyro]

Peter, if this stuff is so obvious why is it that so many shooters dont understand ? Perhaps only a few are actually serious enough to do the hard yards and work it all out ? I believe the top shooters know what matters most re getting on the podium and that advice sure aint in this thread ! Still interesting discussing some of the reloading stuff, mostly to give the info out to the less experienced shooters to accept and take on board, or not.

[bruce moulds]

gyro,
because they think sheer accuracy is the only thing in the formula, and don't want to listen to anything else.
when someone that does know stuff tries to help, they either argue back or change the subject to what they think.
little incentive to the giver of knowledge.
this forum is full of information freely given, you just have to look for it with an open mind.
the really top guys have no agenda, and will talk freely to those who listen.
only recently some have sent me pms of their own volition.
next down come the guys that are not too bad and on the way up, and everything is secret squirrel, from their super advanced tuners to how to tune loads for temp changes.
they cannot get out of their current bubble, stand back, and look at the whole picture in perspective.
the top guys know what it takes to win,as they prove.
you will notice they don't care if they don't win.
sometimes you have to let it happen, because making it happen doesn't work.
ask the right questions the right way and ye shall receive.
bruce.

[Gyro]

"Sheer accuracy". I would love some of that Bruce. I'm still waiting. All ya gotta do after that is read the conditions.

Hats off to the shooters who got "the package". On demand. That takes a whole lot of work !

Be bloody great to see more shooters on ranges ....

[bruce moulds]

maybe learn to read conditions as the higher priority.
bruce.

[Gyro]

maybe learn to read conditions as the higher priority.
bruce.

Totally Bruce. But as Alan points out above, if ya wanna win a shoot - in good company - ya need an accurate gun too.

[bainp]

I believe the top shooters know what matters most re getting on the podium and that advice sure aint in this thread !

The top shooters do have the good gear and read the wind well but what gets them on the podium is what is between their ears mostly. When the going gets tough the great shooters do not buckle to the pressure. I have seen good shooters in all disciplines that buckle when something goes wrong, while the great shooters will stop, think about it and then knuckle down and go on to win.
Philip

[Rich4]

maybe learn to read conditions as the higher priority.
bruce.

How do you learn that without an accurate rifle?
The Chicken or the Egg?

[John T]

Hello Gyro and others.
This post is not on-subject; it is about Gyro's comment that "...so maybe they are the 'springy" ones that need annealing."
I thought that when brass hardens it stiffens, with less spring-back. When annealed, the brass is softened and regains its spring. If I have this a.. face about, I apologise.
John T.